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[MBTI General] Help! I need to learn how to use logic!!

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
A point of reference: anyone who uses language is automatically being "logical."

It's really just a matter of whether the logic is covert or overt.

See, to speak and be understood, everyone makes connections between meaningful utterances: this sentence follows that, this response suits that statement, my tone expresses this meaning, and so on.

The "logic" is overt if you actually say your meaning, completely and directly. As in, "We're here today to discuss existentialism, so let's groove like Socrates with a joint to share." The logic is covert if you have a purpose to your utterances other than the openly stated purpose for meeting and speaking. As in, "I think Obama is great for the future of our country," he says, pocketing his Republican Party membership badge and eyeing the sweet bi-racial chick sitting in the back row.

Everyone uses logic. It's just, a lot of times, they don't lay the whole of their purpose out in the open for everyone to pick over, and therefore they tend not to codify their logic, nor to test it directly, nor to even make it directly available to themselves.

People, I say, and Freaks. The difference is in the toe-nail polish.


But anyway, Critical Thinking, that's what it's called. They even call it that in business. There are courses out there, wholly focused on the business utility of thinkin' critical.

"Being more logical" is practiced more or less just by spelling out in suitable detail why you did something, or should do something, and how it relates to other things. If you do it often enough, the style of talking will transfer to other subjects.

It's hard. But, as they say in the movies, if you do it with a friend you trust, then it's rewarding.

Go Team!


Oh, and by the way, for learning and teaching logical thinking an ENFP teacher I know swears up and down that:

Edward de Bono is a god
and his CoRT techniques genuinely work.
 

dee

New member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
136
MBTI Type
Enfj
Enneagram
2+1
think you may be missing the point of logic
Lol!

3) Your the only person that exists... let all outside influence and judgment become irrelevant to your answers. If someone calls you "slow" or says something that gets on your nerves than ignore it, if the smartest person(or the person you “love”) you know says this is the truth than ignore it... decide what is true yourself.

Wow, Idon't even know if I am capable of doing that like with my emotional makeup...
I mean I could try and sure to some extent we are all seperate but no one else exists....*whistle* I just seriously don't know if I can do that.

Assuming you believe in God or even if you dont believe in God than start there...

"how do i know god exists?" "b/c i feel God" -- and now you contradicted the second point... so that cant be it. "b/c Others have told me god exists" -- contradicted the 3rd point... so that cant be it. "ok, i dont know if god exists... how do i determine whether or not he exists?", "what is existence?"... And so on. This process may leave you with more questions than answers, which is fine(its part of the absolute understanding of your own existence).

What on earth does contemplating the existence of God have to do with logic?
I mean if you do believe in God it is beyond logic as it cannot be scientifically proven.
Faith is the total opposite of reasoning or logic.
Faith begins where reasoning ends...

Also Work and school do not care if your the smartest person on earth

You would be surprised, I have seen job listings like, looking for anyone with 95% score and up in any complex major can apply...etc etc,

They might as well have put in the listing: for geniuses only!
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
Faith is the total opposite of reasoning or logic.

No actually it isn't. Logic and reason can help one better understand the nature of God and even of faith. Ultimately of course, faith is indeed something beyond logic, but not necessarily opposite of it.

As for overall situation, I would suggest you seek less to develop logic per se and instead seek to develop your common sense. That's far more valuable than pure logic.
 

dee

New member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
136
MBTI Type
Enfj
Enneagram
2+1
As for overall situation, I would suggest you seek less to develop logic per se and instead seek to develop your common sense. That's far more valuable than pure logic.

Thanks a lot, I will take reference of that.
Nice, real nice...:wtf:
 

metamorphysics

New member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
32
MBTI Type
INTP
A point of reference: anyone who uses language is automatically being "logical."

It's really just a matter of whether the logic is covert or overt.

See, to speak and be understood, everyone makes connections between meaningful utterances: this sentence follows that, this response suits that statement, my tone expresses this meaning, and so on.

The "logic" is overt if you actually say your meaning, completely and directly. As in, "We're here today to discuss existentialism, so let's groove like Socrates with a joint to share." The logic is covert if you have a purpose to your utterances other than the openly stated purpose for meeting and speaking. As in, "I think Obama is great for the future of our country," he says, pocketing his Republican Party membership badge and eyeing the sweet bi-racial chick sitting in the back row.

Everyone uses logic. It's just, a lot of times, they don't lay the whole of their purpose out in the open for everyone to pick over, and therefore they tend not to codify their logic, nor to test it directly, nor to even make it directly available to themselves.

People, I say, and Freaks. The difference is in the toe-nail polish.


But anyway, Critical Thinking, that's what it's called. They even call it that in business. There are courses out there, wholly focused on the business utility of thinkin' critical.

"Being more logical" is practiced more or less just by spelling out in suitable detail why you did something, or should do something, and how it relates to other things. If you do it often enough, the style of talking will transfer to other subjects.

It's hard. But, as they say in the movies, if you do it with a friend you trust, then it's rewarding.

Go Team!

So if we are trying to completely evade the point of this thread and confuse the OP and others as much as possible, i would say your on the right track.

1) most of what you said probably wont help the OP to become more "logical".
2) your idea of "being more logical", although not actually wrong, is in the context of the existence of your thought/mind process and probably wont help others and their persuit to become more "logical" seeing as when they incorprate your suggestion it is open to much bias and misinterpretation of acheiving the desired goal of "truth"(although not necassarily confined to these paremeters).
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
So if we are trying to completely evade the point of this thread and confuse the OP and others as much as possible, i would say your on the right track.

I believe there is a thread somewhere about when good INTJs turn ENTP.

1) most of what you said probably wont help the OP to become more "logical".
2) your idea of "being more logical", although not actually wrong, is in the context of the existence of your thought/mind process and probably wont help others and their persuit to become more "logical" seeing as when they incorprate your suggestion it is open to much bias and misinterpretation of acheiving the desired goal of "truth"(although not necassarily confined to these paremeters).

Yass, you are right. Bias and misinterpretation will be rife. Favouring hoped for outcomes will continue as before. But you see, it's a ploy...

ENFJs won't do much of anything theoretical if it doesn't involve another person. I mentioned several times that the practice of becoming logical happens in the company of other people, with whom one interlocutes.

You see, I plot the demise of the ENFJ empire. Once they get the habit of actually spelling out their labyrinthine scheming inner workings, their days are numbered.

Indeed to further promote this goal of logicifying the impenetrable:

Headline:

"Anonymous NF says:
Edward de Bono is a god
CoRT techniques genuinely work."
 

metamorphysics

New member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
32
MBTI Type
INTP
Wow, Idon't even know if I am capable of doing that like with my emotional makeup...
I mean I could try and sure to some extent we are all seperate but no one else exists....*whistle* I just seriously don't know if I can do that.
You have the potential to do that; you can do it, the only question is if you have the will to do it. If you really want to become more logical than getting past your emotions is a must.

What on earth does contemplating the existence of God have to do with logic?
thats a good question... answer it yourself.

I mean if you do believe in God it is beyond logic as it cannot be scientifically proven.
Faith is the total opposite of reasoning or logic.
Faith begins where reasoning ends...
How do you know what you just said is true? Did you question your answers or blindly conclude them based on what you feel and or others have told you?

You would be surprised, I have seen job listings like, looking for anyone with 95% score and up in any complex major can apply...etc etc,

They might as well have put in the listing: for geniuses only!
You are right, there are exceptions... the point was more for adaptation of thought and understanding that soceity wont necassarily treat you better for being more thoguhtfull/logical than someone else.
 

Laurie

Was E.laur
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
6,072
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
One thing to remember, once you learn to "be logical" is that no one is logical. We all take everything in through a fallible body and mind.

Also, responding that way to peguy wasn't very logical. You should try to understand what he is saying and apply it to the situation, not just throw something out because you think you can.

In fact, I think that is part of what makes someone look logical. Being willing to try to see something from many viewpoints and basing your argument off all possible points.
 

dee

New member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
136
MBTI Type
Enfj
Enneagram
2+1
thanks metamorphysics I have thought about it a lot and actually when it comes to my ideals and what I believe in, I put way too much thought into it sometimes...and yes I reach these conclusions alone.

The thing is we are kinda drifting here, I was basically looking for ideas on how to improve my logical thinking like when you have a mathematical type puzzle or a riddle or something you need to break up, not logic in and of itself. As a j, I am always working towards a goal, with a logical strategic plan to reach that goal, thats not what I was talking about.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions though :)
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I'm logical.

I shouldn't tell you this, but there's a secret decoder ring. That's how we do it.


*sigh*

Edward de Bono

Do the Google. There's books and everything.

It's exactly what you're looking for, Dee.
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
wtf are rep points

Basically they're comments people make about your posts. They can be either positive or negative. You make one by clicking on the scale at the bottom of your avatar and basic info.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
So, I decided to check back at the starting point and see just how far ahead of the gun I had jumped and...

Sudoku.

Pattern recognition and, I guess, pattern synthesis.

Like a mental Rubik's cube.

Uhm... nope, I got nothing. I don't know how one would practice them other than by practicing them.


Still, de Bono helped one guy off the 'shrooms, so there's that for the CoRT thinking programs.

de Bono beats Drugs
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
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N/A
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N/A
Hi again dee,

Practice the list I put down and you will help yourself gain muscle in the area you seek. And make sure to use your NF strengths and apply them in your unique situation.

Be patient too - you are being too hard on yourself focussing on this perceived incapability.

:)

Love,
PeaceBaby
 

MrME

New member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
383
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Don't let my bosses see this thread, but I am afraid that my logic and reasoning skills are very poor. I think thats is why I feel inferior to my collegues especially in the computer hi-tech world.

First off, don't let yourself fall into the "grass is always greener" trap. Comparing yourself to others is not healthy.

Secondly, I'd recommend reading The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan.
 

CrystalViolet

lab rat extraordinaire
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,152
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XNFP
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5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Um, really it isn't that hard. And I hate suduko, and well basically anything with numbers.
If worst comes to worst, say your answer, then work backwards.
And working in an industry, where logic rules, pick a niche where you have a strong aptitude and become the master, that's what I've done, especially if it's obscure, but not marginalised, p.s. being irrational sometimes is an advantage, people tread lightly, think a genius is at work (works for me), also learn everything there is to know about chosen niche (know it inside out), no fact is too small. If you have the knowledge, no one questions the logic unless you come to ridiculous conclsions that are unworkable, and you cost them money, but your intuition should help you there. Knowledge is the key - no one questions your logic, if you are a talking encyclopaedia.
Also use your own gifts well, that earns more respect than trying to be some one else.
 

mlittrell

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,387
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w1
take discrete mathematics

its purely logic. and it is fun.
 
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