[NF] Frustrated NT Seeking NF Advice

[Shaula]

I am very concerned for my close ENFP friend. For the past few years she's been becomming progressively more reckless and careless. For example, I was pissed last night because she had an affair with a married man who's only defense was, "Oh my wife knows about it." Then ended up sharing a bed with someone else who she's only seen twice in her life and about 30 years older. Also in that same night she popped some unknown pill that some random guy gave her. God, I wanted to smack her! I'm extrememly frustrated with her in that she chooses to put herself in harms way. Instead of saving up the money to see a doctor about her insomnia problems she used to wrap a cloth around her head until she passed out. I can understand when money is tight but that is just plain STUPID. I've tried suggesting many ways to help her problems but she rides off my advice before she even tries it. Sometimes if I suggest her something she will do the opposite just to spite me. (She calls it an impulse to do the opposite.)

Last summer I got a frightening call from her mother telling me that she had gone missing. At the time I was living over a thousand miles away but I dropped everything I was doing and drove cross country to go find her. Turns out she had been staying with some guy in dumpy motel who claimed to be a millionaire and had theoretically bought her a brand new car, a motorcycle, and was planning to take her on a trip to Europe. I ain't making this shit up!

I feel like I've had to put my life on hold for her.

Now I've expressed my worries to her on numerous occasions. She usually replies with, "Well I don't care enough about myself [to seek help]." "How do you expect me to do it when I'm broke. It's easier to do it this way." "You don't understand how I work. It's fine for me to do it [a harmful way] because it doesn't bother me." "You don't understand my situation. You don't know what it's like..." "I know what I'm doing. I've done this so many times." When I argue about the stress she is causing me she says, "Don't be so selfish." "I'm a big girl. I can look out for myself." "I'm not your responsibility."

I've known this person since elementry school and she is like a sister to me. She is actually a very smart girl but she does the stupidest things. I understand that she is an adult and needs to make her own decisions in life but I'll be damned if I find her laying dead in a gutter. There is a part of me that feels OBLIGATED to intervene.

Keep in mind that although I'm seeking advice, I'm also venting.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm interested in seeing what the NFs have to say... but my instinct...

... she's an ENFP and she's happy with what she's doing, and you're an INTJ who is trying to mother her, even if it's for her own good.

You aren't her mother.
You aren't in charge of her.

The part that sucks about love is that you have to let people you love do stupid dumb-ass things with their lives (or at least it might look that way to you) because they're adults.

You say she's a smart person who does dumb things.
Then she's smart enough to take care of herself, and nothing you do is going to stop her.
She's already told you the more you try to control her, the worse she'll rebel.
Why are you trying to win a losing battle?

Offer her something better, if you can.
But otherwise her life is hers.

You already know this.
And NO, it's not your obligation to intervene except to be there for her when she askes for it.


Meanwhile? Vent away.
I'd be pissed at one of my friends doing something like this with her life too.
No harm in being pissed as hell at her.

 

[heart]

I got burned out just reading that. I have no advice except to say if she doesn't want help, there's probably very little you can do.

 

[Amargith]

Unfortunately, Jennifer has a point.

Trying to control an ENFP is pointless. You can't, especially not if you're gonna use the 'tough love' tactic, the autority figure role, or blunt force. This will cause resentment, rebellion and a need to get avoid you. She sounds depressed to me, rudderless, something I'm all too familiar with. She needs a goal in her life, she probably has an immense self-esteem problem (hence the 'I don't think I'm worth it' comment), and she's addicted to things that accomodate her need for escapism, such as the attention of men and other stimulants.

If you have the time and energy, and patience, try and listen to her, without suggesting solutions. Instead, ask questions. What do you wanna change, how do you think you would best accomplish that, what do you think would work for you? Let her tell you what she wants and needs, let her rave and rant about her fears and what's holding her back. INTJ's are brilliant in taking ideas and vague notions and transforming them into workable stuff in reality. Let her decide how she wants to get a hold of her life, and help her with the practical details, if you can. Also, I realize this is something you guys really don't do, but analyze her and tell her what her strenghts are, and really be carefull about the way you formulate the things that need work. Then press your repeat-button. I know, it's not your thing, but she needs to hear it. She needs to realize that she is good at things if she's to gain any idea of what she wants to do with her life.

Oh and all this is useless, if she's not ready to change, just so you know...
Also, she sounds like she could benefit from some professional help, as she is a bit out of control.

Good luck to you
Amargith

 

[Anja]

I feel like I've had to put my life on hold for her.

Keep in mind that although I'm seeking advice, I'm also venting.

Unless your life is threatened by maintaining contact with her I refrain from giving relationship advice unless I'm certain that giving the energy away means that the asker is actually going to use it for constructive purposes.

Experience has told me that people who want to vent usually want to vent and aren't inclined to make any changes which may harm the relationship.

Because anything you do to alter the relationship from the way it has become arranged is going to make you feel like you have damaged it. And it sounds like she would be willing to lay the blame on you from what you've already said.

Your choice to put your life on hold for her is yours to make and break as you choose. So either keep doing it or stop.

There are various techniques you can use to accomplish this without being cruel, but using them will mean resistance from your friend and possibly ending the relationship.

So, before you make any decisions about this ask yourself what length you are willing to go to to free yourself up from the psychological strangle-hold she seems to have on you.

 

[redacted]

She sounds bipolar.

She should get meds. She's obviously acting out -- I wouldn't be surprised if she has been sexually abused/raped.

Sadly, though, all you can do is tell her how you feel. You really can't do much else. As sad as it is, it doesn't sound like she's going to be responsive. You should probably cut her out of your life if she isn't willing to change because this is doing damage to YOU.

Sad but true.

 

[heart]

You should probably cut her out of your life if she isn't willing to change because this is doing damage to YOU.

Sad but true.

+1

 

[IrishStallion819]

Wow, This is quite the saga your going through and I know it must be tough.. She is obviously feeling pretty low about herself and is desperately in need of attention. When people ingage in behaviors, such as what you have said above, Its filling a void in their lifes.. Their is not much you can do, considering she is going to do what she is going to do. Buttttt....... You can offer her support and love. Make sure you let her know that you do love her and care for her and offer a shoulder to cry on. I would maybe ask her over sometime or ask her to meet you somewhere and just offer your help and support. IF she needs to talk, then you need to let her talk. If she needs a place to stay, then if you can, offer her a place to stay.. Basically, pull together any resources you have or what others you know may have; to help her because shes obviously in desperate need. She needs to understand that you are willing to help her, in any way possible and to have assurance that she can count on you. It wouldn't hurt to tell other people about this current situation and see where they could possibly help.. SOmetimes, you just need more than one head, to solve a problem.. I will be in constant prayer about this issue and hope that some event will make it clear to her, that she needs to change and seek help.. I know its quite hard but its amazing the changes people can make, when they know there others out there that actually do care..

 

[Anja]

You guys, she's talking about a life-time relationship here. Splittiing before trying to practice good boundaries with her friend may not be her best choice.

We don't know all the ties or circumstances.

I just encourage no black or white decisions until she has sorted through a lot of factors.

This was addressed to Evan and heart.

 

[redacted]

You guys, she's talking about a life-time relationship here. Splittiing before trying to practice good boundaries with her friend may not be her best choice.

We don't know all the ties or circumstances.

I just encourage no black or white decisions until she has sorted through a lot of factors.

This was addressed to Evan and heart.

It sounds as if he's basically tried all the options.

Tell her to read an article on bipolar disorder, tell her to see a doctor -- if that doesn't work, give up before she destroys you.

You get to CHOOSE your friends. A wise person once told me that.

 

[Lady_X]

i agree with what amargith said. i have never been in a similar situation myself but trying to imagine that i were...i feel like i would feel alone and helpless...i think i would need lots of pep talks and ego stroking...i imagine i would need to realize my value and remember my dreams...have a new focus...a clear picture of who i am and what i am capable of and what i need to do in order to get my life back together.

i imagine an enfp who feels lost and alone would be quite reckless...what a scary thought and wow am i sorry you have to deal with it...but fighting her on it or making her feel stupid for her choices might push her away and make her rebel against anything you have to say...tread lightly...offer love and support and logical encouraging ideas....good luck to both of you and you're a sweet heart for caring so much and trying to help her.

 

[IrishStallion819]

Drugs won't do anything for her, neither will the doc.. IF money is really an issue with her, than thats the worst advice you can give. Those meds are just poison for your mind. What she needs is peoples support and a place to go to escape the drama in her life.. A place where she can grow in a nurturing environment, so she can eventually get back on her feet and start acting like a responsible adult..

 

[Lady_X]

^^ i can agree with that too...if anyone could offer her a place to stay away from everyone for a bit to get herself back together...that would be really helpful i think...a lot to ask of anyone though.

 

[FantailedWall]

She is obviously feeling pretty low about herself and is desperately in need of attention.

No.
From interaction with other ENFPs and - well, being one - when we break down, it's not attention we crave. It's understanding, but we won't seek it out actively - contrary to our healthy state, we will try to block out our friends and family, both in fear of 'dragging them down with us' (so to speak) and in an attempt to severe ties to the reality which hurts.

An ENFP with low self-esteem is likely to have the mindset that they are not worthy of being helped.

Unfortunately, there is so little you can do. The two worse things being:
- Telling her what to do (as has already been said)
- Telling her how selfish she is being (she obviously hasn't realized, and forcing her to will make her try to 'push you away' more, as her currently twisted logic will tell her that's the right thing to do so 'she won't want to detriment on your life'.)

It's only once she wants to help herself that anything can happen - and even then there will be little you can do. She won't want to include you, she'll be of the mindset (and probably rightly so) that 'only she can help herself'.

There is a lot more I want to write, so I'll private message you.

Other than that - Amargith's advice is very sound, and I'm impressed with how dedicated you are to your friend. Very noble of you.


PS - This sounds like a case on an ENFP with clinical depression, NOT bipolar. But I of course cannot say that with certainty.

 

[IrishStallion819]

If its a matter of life and death, That is a sacrifice that someone must make... Its a rarity in our day and age; with our culture the way it is.. But learning about her behaviors and who shes seems to be; Shes going to either end up dead or horribly broken. Which, I don't even want to think of the outcome from that.. In regards to above......To gain understanding from someone, is a form of attention..

 

[redacted]

Drugs won't do anything for her, neither will the doc.. IF money is really an issue with her, than thats the worst advice you can give. Those meds are just poison for your mind. What she needs is peoples support and a place to go to escape the drama in her life..

Wow.

Listen, no one can fix anyone else. She can't escape the drama in her life because she creates it. She obviously doesn't want it fixed -- since she's smart, she can figure out what to do herself -- she's just self-destructing. It's pointless to let her pull anyone else down with her.

Ideally, the OP should offer support and advice while maintaining healthy boundaries. Pragmatically, though, the boundaries aren't healthy at all -- all sorts of horrible precedents have been set. It seems like continuing the relationship the way it's going (which is basically what you're saying..."people's support") is pretty much the worst idea possible. It tells her that her actions don't have consequences on her friendships, and it makes the OP feel helpless while sitting around worrying all day.

Relationships should be thought of as trades. The pros should outweigh the cons for both sides. In this relationship, the cons outweigh the pros on both sides AND it looks like there's no realistic way to push it back towards the positive side.

If she gets better, that would be great for everyone. The relationship can work then. But it's not working now. Not even close. And it's not his responsibility to try to change her, or anyone else.

Codependence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (forget the bullshit 12 step part)

 

[Anja]

The options I've heard? Anger enough to want to hit her. Putting one's life on hold for her. Impressing upon her his worry.

All options which aren't working. That's because they are aimed at changing the other person's behavior and not at changing his approach to her. We all know you can't change anyone else's behavior. A fool's game at best. Self-destructive at worst.

How much does the OP know about love with detachment? That is the answer in any non-lifethreatening situation but it takes a great deal of understanding and hard work on the part of the person practicing it.

When understood and done right it frees you to love a dysfunctional person without enabling their hold-you-captive games. And the nice side-effect is that it forces change in the other.

It requires asking one's self what part they play in making it possible for the other to be dysfunctional and learning how not to do that. It's a good way to help someone you care about because it doesn't cut the emotional ties you have. So that when they are finally ready to ask for help you will still be an option for them.

And it often works but takes a lot of energy and most people find it more convenient to opt out.

This is what the OP needs to decide.

 

[heart]

It sounds as if he's basically tried all the options.

This is what is seemed like to me too.

And it's just an opinion. I seriously doubt the OP, being INTJ is going to leap on my suggestion and run with it without thinking it out.

But seriously, there are some really damaged people out there and they can become such a toxic drain on the people around them, sometimes all that can be done is to protect the self from being taken down with them. If someone is self-destructive and won't help themsevles and won't accept help from others, then what can anyone do?

Edit: Evan answer is much better than mine.

 

[Lady_X]

clarifying...by ego stroking i don't just mean bs'ing her i mean the thing about us enfp's that i've seen is our self confidence is what enables us to be productive...we have to believe we are good at something we are doing and value ourselves in order to want to be with people and create positive situations around ourselves...i imagine she must be feeling the opposite...she needs to feel strong again...by believing in herself...knowing who she is what she stands for and what her unique gifts are help her discover them if you can...ask her questions...being supportive...say...you CAN do that! YOU are amazing at that! that's my opinion...for how i think i would feel in her place.

 

[Anja]

The options the OP listed were dysfunctional. A reaction to her rather than detached action on his part. Reactions like frustration and anger are there but can't lead the motivation to detach. They will keep you playing the game at an unhealthy level.