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[NF] NF Pragmatists?

Gamine

in-game
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Awh, well thank you for sharing that. I would rather save a single life, than save the entire world, no matter the person.
Edit: (Although that sounds completely contradicting, I hope you know what I mean).

I'll make a deal with you then. You focus on Micro-level of relationships (helping people one-on-one), and I'll do my best to focus on Macro-level relationships. What d'ya say? Partners? haha
 

Nonsensical

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I'll make a deal with you then. You focus on Micro-level of relationships (helping people one-on-one), and I'll do my best to focus on Macro-level relationships. What d'ya say? Partners? haha

That's a great thing for NFP's to do! Partners we are, and a deal it shall be! :cheers:
 

Anja

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INFP
Neat conversation, Guys!

I was a lousy Idealist. Totally falling on the Jay side and pretty obnoxious as a teen/twenty me.

Had a lot of stumbles along the way and decided Pragmatism was right for me. I also see it as a whole: birth, growth, decay, death, rebirth. It all belongs.

I can't fight a cycle like that. I tend to think of holding my own ground and picking up the pieces as best I can as my spot in it all. Healer? Is that what that stance is?

Edit: Was that a slur against Jays? Didn't mean it to sound like that? I just meant that I was very judgemental about how things should be.
 

Nonsensical

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Neat conversation, Guys!

I was a lousy Idealist. Totally falling on the Jay side and pretty obnoxious as a teen/twenty me.

Had a lot of stumbles along the way and decided Pragmatism was right for me. I also see it as a whole: birth, growth, decay, death, rebirth. It all belongs.

I can't fight a cycle like that. I tend to think of holding my own ground and picking up the pieces as best I can as my spot in it all. Healer? Is that what that stance is?

Edit: Was that a slur against Jays? Didn't mean it to sound like that? I just meant that I was very judgemental about how things should be.

I think I'm on the same path..I can [at times] be somewhat obnoxious, but it comes and goes with age, I'm pleased to say. I already know I have a rough road awaiting me, maybe that's why we think this way?
 

kiddykat

movin melodies
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I wouldn't want to help toothless opportunists who think the vast majority of people are dumb/worthless. I understand though.. They self-project.

When it comes to people- I care. When it comes to materialistic stuff- I really care less.. not unless if it's quality things I need (stable car/house/computer). I think, "What if that person could be my mom, a loved one?" It's rational when we personalize others. It's irrational when we depersonalize humans.

If it wasn't for love, we wouldn't have evolved as far as we have. Greed, hate, short-sightedness, ignorance, contempt, cause people to regress. It's a recipe for disaster, just like what happened in Nazi Germany and is still happening in Myanmar. I do what's best with what I got. I don't expect others to be Mother Teresa, but I certainly *do* care.. If I move to trillionare status (j/k), if I was rich, I would definitely help out those who truly face financial oppression.
 

Anja

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It took me a while, Viv, to realize, as you, that "help" isn't the best thing to give to some people! Some people need just enough of a mess in their lives to be motivated to make changes.

It's hard to watch, though.
 

Nonsensical

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I wouldn't want to help toothless opportunists who think the vast majority of people are dumb/worthless. I understand though.. They self-project.

When it comes to people- I care. When it comes to materialistic stuff- I really care less.. not unless if it's quality things I need (stable car/house/computer). I think, "What if that person could be my mom, a loved one?" It's rational when we personalize others. It's irrational when we depersonalize humans.

If it wasn't for love, we wouldn't have evolved as far as we have. Greed, hate, short-sightedness, ignorance, contempt, cause people to regress. It's a recipe for disaster, just like what happened in Nazi Germany and is still happening in Myanmar. I do what's best with what I got. I don't expect others to be Mother Teresa, but I certainly *do* care.. If I move to trillionare status (j/k), if I was rich, I would definitely help out those who truly face financial oppression.


I also think that greed, selfishness, and anger help us to learn, and to actually progress in the grand scheme of things. Nazi Germany was one particular event, but look how it's benefited? Any as radical as that, today, wouldn't and couldn't possibly exist, even though some of it is happening. I'm also not saying that I don't care about people, but all I'm saying is that, a few black strokes here and there contribute to the whole painting. When it comes to other individuals, ones you love, It does matter..but when you set that aside, look at the entire world, and look at broad things that are occuring, and not specific things, that they are not necessarily as bad as we think.
 

Moiety

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I'm a dreamer when it comes to self-realization but not so much when it comes to changing the world. I'm not going to waste my life promoting "Utopia", but I will spend my life trying to be happy (fulfilling my, somewhat wild, dreams).
 

Little Linguist

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I'm a dreamer when it comes to self-realization but not so much when it comes to changing the world. I'm not going to waste my life promoting "Utopia", but I will spend my life trying to be happy (fulfilling my, somewhat wild, dreams).

Hellz yeah, tell 'em!!!!! :D
 

Nonsensical

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I'm a dreamer when it comes to self-realization but not so much when it comes to changing the world. I'm not going to waste my life promoting "Utopia", but I will spend my life trying to be happy (fulfilling my, somewhat wild, dreams).

Hellz yeah, tell 'em!!!!! :D


In a sense, that's exactly what I'm saying! Nice to see it put into better context!:D
 

kiddykat

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I disagree. Don't twist Buddha's words. Although I respect the opinions stated, I'm not in a mood for debates.
 

Nonsensical

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Did Buddha invent Yin and Yang?


No, technically not, but I tie it in with Buddha, even if people say it's wrong. Buddha did say that life was full of suffering, and the key to inner happiness was to look around it; find new things. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

And sorry if I changed the Buddha's words. I either worded it incorrectly, or veiw him differently.
 

Orangey

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In a sense, and now that I think of it, your right. I'd like to change what I said about the bad and the good. What I guess I ment was that, without the bad, we wouldn't be able to be as happy as we are. Think about it: if everything was good, it would just be normal..but if you add the aspect of negativity, hypothetically, you'd be able to feel more happy, when you look in perspective.

I'm not sure, but I think that I fundamentally disagree with the perspective of the original poster. I tend to think that there are two levels; the first being the level of the material conditions of our existence, and the second being the level of our emotional/psychological reactions to our material conditions of existence. The second level is stable, meaning that it will always be there. Humans will always have good/bad valuations to bestow on their environments. The first level, however, is changeable.

In this way, we can view an issue like, say, global warming and climate change as belonging to these two levels. Materially, we are fairly sure that human intervention is needed to prevent the physical environment from deteriorating. Accomplishing this (farfetched or impossible as it may be) would not eradicate the existence of good/bad valuation in the human psyche. Thus, accomplishing what seems like an idealistic (or "good") task will only make the object that we bestowed a "bad" judgment on disappear (stopping impending doom of global climate change), not the function of assigning "bad" judgments.

So lack of willingness to change based on the idea that the "bad" needs to balance out the "good" is a bit silly. Nothing material is "essentially" good or bad, so doing away with some aspect of our material reality that we feel is "bad" will not make badness as some sort of entity go away, throwing the universe into a kind of yin/yang imbalance or anything like that, but will instead force us to readjust what we perceive as good or bad. There will always be a good and bad, or good and evil as long as the human brain is capable of making value judgments.

Anyway, I'm tired and not quite sure that I made any sense just now. Probably not...;)
 

antireconciler

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This is a really great conversation. I'd like to read it more thoroughly later.

I am in the world, but not of it.

Sounds decidedly familiar ... ;)

I also think that greed, selfishness, and anger help us to learn, and to actually progress in the grand scheme of things. Nazi Germany was one particular event, but look how it's benefited? Any as radical as that, today, wouldn't and couldn't possibly exist, even though some of it is happening. I'm also not saying that I don't care about people, but all I'm saying is that, a few black strokes here and there contribute to the whole painting. When it comes to other individuals, ones you love, It does matter..but when you set that aside, look at the entire world, and look at broad things that are occuring, and not specific things, that they are not necessarily as bad as we think.

I take you to mean that even while we can appreciate the necessary impermanence of all finite existence, and thus detach ourselves from this or that form, which now comes into being and now passes away, that we yet, as finite beings, have wills which work among the finite, helping to prolong lives, ease suffering, create works of art, and so on, which is also, at the same time, that one universal will which wills for its one Self, for love, for life, for creation.

Perhaps there is a necessity to human history which is exactly that structure of the coming into self-knowledge of consciousness. I'm not the first one to say it, but it seems compelling. The ability to reflect on the past and grow beyond it is a matter of having learned from what wasn't clear before. Self-development appears to be a process of learning from mistakes which could not have been known to be as much had they never been given expression. But if the knowledge we come to of ourselves is in time in virtue of the events of history which have provided it, then perhaps we can appreciate that even the awareness we have now of ourselves could not be possible without an awareness of errors, or black strokes, as you say.

This is kind of experimental for me. Thanks for letting me try it out. ;)
 
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