[MBTI General] Idealist Thoughts on INTP Romance

[Tallulah]

That is a stumbling point for me as well, Wielding. I don't know if it's more common in INTPs than other types. But anyone who says something of the nature "That's just that way I am so adjust to me." doesn't seem willing to have an equal relationship with me and I find it difficult to invest interest in them.

I'll be honest. When I have that attitude toward others, it's because they're more invested in me than I am in them, and I don't really have the energy to expend on trying to do things exactly the way they want them. INTPs really are all about energy conservation, so we can have more time to live in our heads. If I'm really captivated by someone or really invested, I'll make a lot of effort in the relationship. People, in general, just don't fascinate us very often. Sometimes I can like a person just fine, and even enjoy their company, but when they start making a lot of demands of me, it becomes more of a hassle than it's worth.

Wow, I think I just wrote my own "unappealing qualities" list.

 

[93JC]

LOL! ^_^

And there go the INTPs being cute all over again! Ugh! It's such a predicament to be so adorable and so annoying simultaneously like you are!

How else did you think we'd get away with our annoying shenanigans?

 

[Kasper]

Ok, so this means we have to marry the INTP girls.

MEEEE, PICK MEEEEE!

^ Would you like it better if I got my sword out?

You're next!

 

[Salomé]

Horses whinny, people are whiney.

QFT

You're just talking romance though: I'm talking about it in a greater sense. I'll feign an ability to read subtleties in the interests of romance, because even if the relationship isn't emotionally or intellectually stimulating or gratifying there's an outside chance I'd get laid.

Gotta love that honesty.

But for instance if you want me to take out the garbage I'd rather you politely asked "93JC, will you please take out the garbage?" once than said something like "You know 93JC, that garbage can seems to be getting quite full..." Don't try to weasel me into doing it, just ask!!

+1

Why is this difficult to understand?

I am of the opinion that people who are unable to directly express their wishes have a problem with self-esteem and/or are manipulative and one shouldn't have to change one's self to accommodate that kind of unhealthiness.
If anyone can think of a valid reason why this is not the case, please explain.

 

[EcK]

I am of the opinion that people who are unable to directly express their wishes have a problem with self-esteem and/or are manipulative and one shouldn't have to change one's self to accommodate that kind of unhealthiness.
.

I can only agree
Oh, It does sound a bit like sarcasm doesn't it. Just a thought

-hugs and kisses-

 

[Anja]

And INTPs will never understand why.

Oh well, guess we'll just have to agree you're wrong and move on.

What was that thing you were saying about being stubborn?



More like "That's just the way I am so take it or leave it." Actually, not so strongly worded. More of a subtle () "This is the way I am, just trying to give you fair warning, get out now if you expect wholesale change."

I would never be as presumptuous to expect someone to 'adjust to me'. That's just rude.

Well spoken, JC93. Sounds like simplicity and honesty. I think that would be the kind of person who could be in an equal relationship. If both people were willing to make slight adjustments in attitude/style.

 

[MacGuffin]

But for instance if you want me to take out the garbage I'd rather you politely asked "93JC, will you please take out the garbage?" once than said something like "You know 93JC, that garbage can seems to be getting quite full..." Don't try to weasel me into doing it, just ask!!

Heh, I'll respond, "yes it is getting full." Then go back to what I was doing.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Heh, I'll respond, "yes it is getting full." Then go back to what I was doing.

My GF will say "Hun, your hair is getting long."

"Really? What an astute observation, you're right. I didn't think you had your contacts in."

Incoming stare of death.

 

[Anja]

I'll be honest. When I have that attitude toward others, it's because they're more invested in me than I am in them, and I don't really have the energy to expend on trying to do things exactly the way they want them. INTPs really are all about energy conservation, so we can have more time to live in our heads. If I'm really captivated by someone or really invested, I'll make a lot of effort in the relationship. People, in general, just don't fascinate us very often. Sometimes I can like a person just fine, and even enjoy their company, but when they start making a lot of demands of me, it becomes more of a hassle than it's worth.

Wow, I think I just wrote my own "unappealing qualities" list.

I really do identify with some people just taking more energy than I am willing to give, Tallulah. Yes.

I don't think, in that case it's a flaw at all. Just self-preservation.

 

[Tallulah]

I am of the opinion that people who are unable to directly express their wishes have a problem with self-esteem and/or are manipulative and one shouldn't have to change one's self to accommodate that kind of unhealthiness.
If anyone can think of a valid reason why this is not the case, please explain.

Well, I actually don't think that's why most people do it. I think they probably think that it's more respectful or polite to hint around or vaguely suggest, rather than outright asking. Particularly if they're afraid of being seen as a nag or causing a confrontation. And who knows, they might think, knowing how INTPs can be, that we might see being asked directly to do it as them telling us what to do--which they know we'll hate. I really think it's just a difference in styles, though I'm sure some are actively trying to manipulate.

Frankly, it's not gonna matter much to me how someone asks me to do a mundane household chore. I'm still going to be pulled out of my awesome inner world in order to do it. I'm never gonna go, "Yeah! That would be great--let me do it right NOW!" I do think that INTPs that continually ignore signals on purpose just to be douchebags are probably not doing anything but being annoying to the other person. (And yes, I've done this, too.) Not exactly great for the relationship, assuming we value said relationship. A much better tactic would be to say, "Could you just ask me to do it, instead of hinting around, please?"

(Also, thanks, Anja--I think INTPs and INFPs are probably not far off from each other on the conservation front.)

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Ooh, ouch! But very INTP of you! Good demonstration.




It's not bad, it's just not ideal, you're talking to a bunch of idealists! We revel in subtlety, flights of imagination, unpredictability in the area of romance, come on! Why be so reactive? What do you want from me, unhampered by my request?

Yeah, hehe, it need not make any sense! Its just a matter of feel! Lets relish in unpredictability! Today, I adore you, tomorrow you are the anti-christ. Hehe, this is subtlety my friend! Who could possibly be hurt by such a seemingly innocent and a precious thing! Hehhe! We're idealists aint we!? Why be so reactive, hehehehe, what do you want from me, I have a feel and that is it! So just trust the feel and be quite, dont expect me to make any sense! Relish in the subtlety, relish in the flights of imagination! As Neo from the Matrix said "In this world anything is possible" or as many propagandists of motivational speaking asserted "If you can imagine it you can do it!" So whats wrong, just trust the feel!

Dont you bother thinking about what the situation really is like (communicating directly isnt ideal remember, to hell with not ideal, its completely useless), just relish in your imagination and the unpreictability of romantic nuance!

Anything could be! Forget about letting the other person know what you are all about or what the relationship is like, we are idealistic romantic-dreamers! Its anything that we want! Anything that we feel like doing! And dont you dare force us into the straight answer! Dont you dare spoil our precious mood with your insipid exhortations for directness and making sense of things! Dont you dare threaten the sacred volatility of feelings, this moment I feel this way the next moment I will feel another way, thats the unpredictability of romance you should relish in!

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Summary: This whole appeal to romantic unpredictability and nuance of feeling is just an attempt by Fs to deny responsibility for their actions. Or quite simply they refuse to communicate directly because they simply wish to do whatever they feel like doing. Only communicating directly will make their position clear. Only if their position is clear could they be held accountable for it. If its not clear, there is nothing that is stopping them from acting like children or simply using Feeling excessively, or in other words in that case there is nothing stopping them from acting on whim, appeasing every last vulgar impulse of theirs.

93JC is absolutely right, direct and reasonable communication should be absolutely vouched for. That is the case because it is an ethical truism that people should accept responsibility for their actions, there is no reason at all why Fs should be exampt from such an obligation.

 

[Anja]

Reading responses to "The wastebasket sure is full" game put me in mind of a place I onced worked where a group of staff members attempted that with me in the break room, having a conversation among themselves which was obviously pointed in my direction. It felt as though they were trying to pressure me into saying, "I'll do it."

I responded by not responding. Just kept reading my newspaper while they kept upping the ante.

The end result was mutual antipathy. That's what seems to happen if you choose to play the passive-aggressive game. It's a no-win situation, I think. And it lasts for considerably longer than is necessary over such a piddling matter. Bleeds over into other, more important matters. Stonewalling. Two parties dead-ended.

If I had it to do over I would have asked if they were hoping that I would volunteer. Then I would have said why, or why not, I was able to meet that request.

I like to encourage honest communication between people. It still may produuce resentment but I don't think it's as deep or long-lasting as those underground currents which predominate when neither side is being honest.

Passive-aggression seems to fuel our current culture and I believe is the cause of a lot of dysfunction which our society seems to be jam-cram full of these days.

Edit: Had a thought about my mother who is entering into the final stages of Alzheimer's. She finds it impossiple to be direct about her thoughts and feelings/needs. It's very frustrating.

I think her total dependence on others is frightening to her. So, instead of saying "No, I can't." to a request, she fabricates elaborate excuses which hold no water. What's under it? My guess is fear of showing her disability, fear of others becoming angry with her. At this point is is no longer possible to explain to her why a simple refusal would produce less frustration in me. But I would, in any situatiton with any person, rather hear a simple, "No." than any other kind of disingenous unspoken or spoken response.

 

[Tallulah]

Oh, wow, Anja, that kind of passive-aggressive hinting would drive me nuts. I'm glad you didn't play into their hands. And that feels like some sort of weird social experiment directed at you personally. Shades of junior high. Ick.

 

[Anja]

Oh, wow, Anja, that kind of passive-aggressive hinting would drive me nuts. I'm glad you didn't play into their hands. And that feels like some sort of weird social experiment directed at you personally. Shades of junior high. Ick.

Weirder yet? They were all mental health professionals! I quit that job after three years. Crazy patients are a job. Crazy staff is an absurdity.

My point? With the tools I have today I think I could have handled it better.

 

[Kaizer]

Weirder yet? They were all mental health professionals! I quit that job after three years. Crazy patients are a job. Crazy staff is an absurdity.

My point? With the tools I have today I think I could have handled it better.

They were lucky you weren't an adolescent INTP or else who knows you might've presented each one of em a book on psych/type theory etc. or maybe just copies of the relevant chapter/pages

 

[JocktheMotie]

They were lucky you weren't an adolescent INTP or else who knows you might've presented each one of em a book on psych/type theory etc. or maybe just copies of the relevant chapter/pages

I actually considered doing this, printing out an INTP profile for my SO to put in her stocking for christmas. I ultimately decided against it.

Sort of like a...JocktheMotie handbook.

 

[INA]

I'll be honest. When I have that attitude toward others, it's because they're more invested in me than I am in them, and I don't really have the energy to expend on trying to do things exactly the way they want them. INTPs really are all about energy conservation, so we can have more time to live in our heads. If I'm really captivated by someone or really invested, I'll make a lot of effort in the relationship. People, in general, just don't fascinate us very often. Sometimes I can like a person just fine, and even enjoy their company, but when they start making a lot of demands of me, it becomes more of a hassle than it's worth.

+1

Also, I don't think INTPs are in the habit of demanding other people adjust - It's more common that we do not want to adjust to other people, and certainly not on their suggestion. I see that is enough of an offense to some.

This description was right on:

"This is the way I am, just trying to give you fair warning, get out now if you expect wholesale change."

 

[Anja]

I actually considered doing this, printing out an INTP profile for my SO to put in her stocking for christmas. I ultimately decided against it.

Sort of like a...JocktheMotie handbook.

That would have been soveryvery welcome!

 

[Salomé]

Well, I actually don't think that's why most people do it. I think they probably think that it's more respectful or polite to hint around or vaguely suggest, rather than outright asking. Particularly if they're afraid of being seen as a nag or causing a confrontation. And who knows, they might think, knowing how INTPs can be, that we might see being asked directly to do it as them telling us what to do--which they know we'll hate. I really think it's just a difference in styles, though I'm sure some are actively trying to manipulate.

I don't think so either, but I don't think people always know why they do it.

I find a particular problem with those exhibiting unhealthy enneagram "2" behaviour:

In the average to unhealthy Levels, Twos present a false image of being completely generous and unselfish and of not wanting any kind of pay-off for themselves, when in fact, they can have enormous expectations and unacknowledged emotional needs.

Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”

 

[JocktheMotie]

That would have been soveryvery welcome!

Hmm...maybe I'll reconsider then!