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[MBTI General] who're more manipulative? entp or infj

Salomé

meh
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Sep 25, 2008
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Wow! This thread sucks on so many levels!
 
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Glycerine

Guest
I liked By My Sword's honestly even if it was a bit surprising. On the other hand, I can see how others could get offended. :)
 

Kestrel

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I liked By My Sword's honestly even if it was a bit surprising. On the other hand, I can see how others could get offended. :)

I also appreciate his unadulterated honesty. He could have presented it a little better. But, I think we need a few more edgy INFJ's on this board. We're not all saints. :devil:
 
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Glycerine

Guest
I also appreciate his unadulterated honesty. He could have presented it a little better. But, I think we need a few more edgy INFJ's on this board. We're not all saints. :devil:

We're supposed to be saints? haha, wtf? I know I'm not!

Oh btw, you have an awesome quote.
 
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Glycerine

Guest
Coming off as a saint (presenting well) is just another way to gain power over those around you.

Now that I think about it it does come to my advantage. Plus being 5', physically handicapped, and being deemed "pretty" by some probably also helps with coming off saintly.
 

redacted

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The image your peers have of you is basic to being able to have large effects on them.

The more they trust you/like you, the more vulnerable they'll be to your manipulation.
 
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Glycerine

Guest
The image your peers have of you is basic to being able to have large effects on them.

The more they trust you/like you, the more vulnerable they'll be to your manipulation.

Interesting way to look at it. I rarely use that tool other than maybe with authority figures. However, wouldn't it be shady/mean to use it on everyone??? I would not like to get played, haha.
 

redacted

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Interesting way to look at it. I have never utilized that tool efficiently other than maybe with authority figures. However, wouldn't it be shady/mean to use it on everyone??? I would not like to get played, haha.

I definitely use it on everyone.

I put in a lot of effort towards building trust/respect, because I know it gives me more control. I don't necessarily have to use the control, but if something comes up, I'll be in a better position.

Plus, I'm in a better position to help them, too. They'll actually listen to me if I say something that usually makes them defensive.

And then helping them just makes them trust me more, giving me more power.

Everything is about power. Whether it's conscious or unconscious.
 
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Glycerine

Guest
I definitely use it on everyone.

I put in a lot of effort towards building trust/respect, because I know it gives me more control. I don't necessarily have to use the control, but if something comes up, I'll be in a better position.

Plus, I'm in a better position to help them, too. They'll actually listen to me if I say something that usually makes them defensive.

And then helping them just makes them trust me more, giving me more power.

Everything is about power. Whether it's conscious or unconscious.

oh ok, gotcha. I always stayed away from using that tool because I saw that tool as a negative but it sounds like it can be as much a benefit too.
 

redacted

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oh ok, gotcha. I always stayed away from using that tool because I saw that tool as a negative but it sounds like it can be as much a benefit too.

That's kinda the big question in this thread.

Is it manipulative if you try to change someone for their own good? (Because that benefits you too)

Also, is it manipulative if you aren't conscious of it?

I think the answer is yes to both of those questions.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
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Entps are not manipulative at all :(
you're all so mean, We do have feelings too you know!!



Ow what is that thing, a bullshit-o-meter, GOSH, it's GLOWING!
 

entropie

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Entps are not manipulative at all :(
you're all so mean, We do have feelings too you know!!



Ow what is that thing, a bullshit-o-meter, GOSH, it's GLOWING!

Feelings are the path to the dark side, my pseudo non-manipulative new friend :)
 

Eldanen

Arcesso pulli gingerios!
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Apr 26, 2007
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Perambulating Feces.

Oh, what?

I won't believe that I'm manipulative unless someone proves it to me! So there!
 

pubcrawl

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ISTP
Hahahaha....

I thought I was interpersonally retarded until I got an ENFJ girlfriend at 16 who showed me what I was capable of (ha, sounds hilarious when I say it). Then I realized I had been pretty good already.

It's all about telling the truth. And staying silent strategically.

And, making a good impression on everyone at all times, even if you don't care about them. Because it can come in handy later.

Note: Not a very good way to live life, honestly...it's totally a compulsion. But I at least always win the loyalty game. I can get anyone on my side if I need them.

Trust is built through being honest. And the other person believing you. The best way is to tell the truth, but selectively, because the other person will see that you're being genuine (which you are), so they'll trust you. Even the most "powerful" or "skilled" social visionaries know I tell the truth, because I do.

Don't give anyone a reason not to like you. If you sense that they might start resenting you, call it out right then and explain yourself. Look flustered. Look like you care that they like you (which has to be genuine, even if you don't like them).

Every word you say, every facial expression you make, all of that shit...those are all "moves" in the social game. They should all be profit-maximizing in terms of generating positive feeling towards you (with different weights for different people's feelings, based on how important they are to your long-term strategy).

Strategic aside: it's smart to disagree with people, too, or else they'll suspect you. So you gotta get in little arguments at strategic times -- times when even if you piss people off, it won't matter much in the long term. You don't want to come off as someone who will blindly agree. Also, say your opinions that differ from the norm as long as they aren't too threatening to those around you at the time. And you can't lie. You have to be willing to cause short-term discomfort to those around you, because it's better for your image in the long run.

Also, you have to take stands against certain people -- you have to be fair-minded. You should visibly regret the fact that you have negative sentiments towards someone, but hold your ground against people that have broken a moral code. You don't want to look weak-willed, because then people will know they can walk all over you.

The most important part, though, is -- DO NOT LIE unless you honestly have no other choice. It's basically cheating, and people WILL notice if you make a habit of it. Every emotion you show has to be genuine. You can and should make sure to present them overtly if they're profit-maximizing, and you should downplay them if not.


Anyway, this is not what I recommend, because the pressure you start to feel becomes incredible. But one thing it does do is win you every loyalty battle you get into. My ENTP ex (one of the most manipulative people I've ever met, probably) and I had the same group of friends, all of whom took "my side" after the breakup (even more strongly than I was expecting, or even wanted). I didn't even ask. Even the ones that started out as her friend ended up as mine.

The difference between her strategy and mine is that she's much more focused on the short term. She's way better with strangers than I am. And sometimes she's better in relationships for the first month or two. But she always ends up sacrificing long-term for short-term.


Anyways, that's why I'm kinda leaning towards INFJs being more manipulative than ENTPs (it's basically long-run manipulation vs. short-term). Even the INFJs I know that don't consciously think this way still basically use this strategy, although they'd probably argue with me and play defense if I said so. No point in beating around the bush, though.

I can literally say all of this stuff to any of my friends and the strategy still works perfectly. It's pretty much unbeatable in the long-run.


I know you were probably joking when you asked, but I got inspired.



In my experience, nearly all INFJs do this whether they realize it or not. This can kinda backfire on your psyche b/c now you go around doubting and mistrusting everything they do.
 

sculpting

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I cant find the original quote from Evan above but on so many levels I find it horrific.

Now I have to apologize as that is my Fi gut response and I know it will sound offensive. I am watching the Fe mask/indirect approach fuck over my company right now. The indirectness is very destructive and the games are utterly useless and waste a lot of time and energy.

What I see is that in a Te, Fi heavy crowd, Fe gets made excluded pretty quickly. It is ineffective and people can "feel" the fact that it is not behaving authentically. Even my INTPs are somewhat wary of INFJs. We can see through it.

We can tell when the answer you give is hiding what you are really thinking-the answer is too "poised" and incomplete.
 

Winds of Thor

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Are you serious?

I can't believe so many of you have read so much into this. Who said I wasn't being myself? Who said I was tricking people into liking me? I honestly don't get it. :huh:

If I took out the thing about the girls, none of you would have anything to say.

Don't get mad because your crazy antics drove me away Rogue. I was never cruel to you.

I hate to say it, but it's combative NFPs..They will context jump, hoping you didn't notice. Or they don't pick up on the subtle differences in contexts.

Some go straight for the emotional jugular, without keeping in mind the difference in subject. Your actions and your intentions were layed out in front, as was honest and what would be more delightful to take a look at on an MBTI website? Frustrating.

If this were a site for everyone to crack on others, then I'd say NFPs: fair

You showed your thoughts and actions which is entirely aligned with the questions and context of this thread. Good job.
 
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