[MBTI General] who're more manipulative? entp or infj

[LucrativeSid]

If you INFJs have been trying to manipulate people in this thread, you've been doing a shitty job!

 

[BlueScreen]

I'm really hoping INFJs aren't as much of saints as the make out to be. Cos sometimes it can feel like eternity shackled to boredom. Maybe if some more evils got out then more character would be seen. For an ENFP just being nice and thoughtful rarely attracts me. It is great for society in a rigid, old fashioned, "lets do nothing wrong and make everyone else feel they have to toe the line also" way. But really come on and unleash. You are NFs!!! Bring on unplanned, wild entertainment. ENFJs have the evil in them, a bit of introversion can't change things that much.

 

[BlueScreen]

If you INFJs have been trying to manipulate people in this thread, you've been doing a shitty job!

They can be quite manipulative. They are just losing on purpose!!

 

[violaine]

....

What is the nature of these 'pings'? What is the meaning you search for? How do you feel and what do you do if you send a 'ping' out and get a completely unexpected response?

Anyway, thanks INFJs for your honesty!

Well, it hadn't occurred to me to even explain it any further, lol. I forget that everyone doesn't do it. I was trying to describe the automatic process that I am sure all INFJ engage in when interacting with others, we are looking for clues. 'Searching' the other person. Trying to figure you out. People are puzzles. And it is not meant to be invasive, but is a way for us to 'see' you in order to relate, connect or analyze. I would feel lost without it. I don't use whatever I glean to manipulate, I just want to figure out how the other person works tbh. I very much enjoy when I get back something I wasn't expecting, though with a new person I rarely have predetermined ideas.

(Oh and thanks for the encouragement!)

I think INFJs have an awesome ability to not only care and empathize with people, but to take a detached perspective on things (unless it comes to themselves ) while balancing all of that on the quick-witted scale of experience. It makes for a very good manipulation set-up, though admittably I have never seen the INFJ I know to do anything even selfish in nature. If it benefits him, it does. If it does not though, he's still just as happy to be honest and open about what he evaluates. A pleasent surprise like a win-win isn't common, but when it occurs all the better is the attitude I've seen.

This is very true, while we are analyzing we can become very detached. It's why INFJ can seem aloof even in the midst of discussing something that can be upsetting for the other person. I often have to remember to include something personal when I'm in that mode otherwise it can be weird, cos I can only feel the empathy for a person at the edges of what I'm concentrating on. (I am looking for a solution or resolution to a problem.) The full-force feeling of empathy will usually kick in later for me.

I'm really hoping INFJs aren't as much of saints as the make out to be. Cos sometimes it can feel like eternity shackled to boredom. Maybe if some more evils got out then more character would be seen. For an ENFP just being nice and thoughtful rarely attracts me. It is great for society in a rigid, old fashioned, "lets do nothing wrong and make everyone else feel they have to toe the line also" way. But really come on and unleash. You are NFs!!! Bring on unplanned, wild entertainment. ENFJs have the evil in them, a bit of introversion can't change things that much.

Well some are and many aren't. (INFJ can hold themselves to very high standards.) But it will most likely never be known until you know one personally. INFJ and ENFJ can be sooo different, though obviously in the same 'family'. I often find much in common with INTJ because they are also Ni dominant.

 

[Lexicon]

Yeah, but you can manipulate someone into doing something that they need to do if they're not able to figure it out for themselves. Thats what counselors are for. And thats how INFJs work. I'm not bragging about it, I never was, which is what I think you're getting from all this. I was just giving my thoughts on the matter.

It isn't my fault I happen to appreciate the traits I have in this regard and consider them a strength.



Thats the beauty of an INFJ. We can take a third party NT approach and advise them in the best course of action. Our NF allows us to put ourselves in their shoes and understand where they're coming from as well. Because of this, we're able to give sound advice in a caring manner. It makes us very comforting to talk to. And I won't apologize for that. I enjoy that strength, and I enjoy helping people I care about with it.

And when you say that, you're basically saying all real therapists are scary and narcissistic, and thats fucking stupid. People come to me.

The difference between them and me is that counseling people comes naturally for me, and since I never took a Hippocratic oath and I'm not gettiing paid, I technically don't have to help them. But I do anyway.

Is it so wrong that sometimes, I can persuade them in a right course of action that will benefit myself as well?

Well.

I was going to respond to the initial question on this thread, as well as address the discrepancies regarding the generally perceived negative connotations associated with the word "manipulative."

But you've pretty much summed it up for me.
The only time I'm ever manipulative with others are the instances when distraught people approach me seeking advice on how to solve their problems. More often than not, as an objective observer, the most logical/effective/healthy solution is more apparent to me than it may be for the person directly involved. That said, sometimes it's difficult to simply present the solution in an upfront manner. I mean, you can flip to the back of your math book for the solution to an equation you're stuck on, but that's rarely enough to truly grasp the essential concepts and apply them again in the future... and then the solution doesn't even matter at that point; bears no significance or meaning, because you never actually made sense of the problem to begin with.

So perhaps, in that respect, I define 'INFJ manipulation' as more of a form of teaching, albeit the student typically remains unaware that they've been seated at a desk, reading my scrawlings on the chalkboard at all.

Only part I can't quite relate to is your final question. Not that I believe what you're doing is wrong (as it seems your primary motive in offering advice to these girls at all was to steer them from maladaptive directions in their personal lives, not get them to, well, bang you...), I'm just not sure that I've really ever consciously taken into consideration what in a situation [where I'm "counselling" someone] will benefit me as a result... aside from the general sense of satisfaction I derive from "guiding" people through obstacles, and watching them come to constructive solutions for their problems "on their own," and walk away not only with their answer but perhaps with a slightly elevated sense of self sufficiency as well... (yeah, all that makes me warm and fuzzy. And stuff.) When I'm in that 'repair humanity' mode, my awareness of my personal needs has a tendency to switch over to stand-by or shuts off completely.


...Then again, I've never had a guy I was attracted to come to me for advice about a bad relationship he was in...

Hell. Simply enjoying the fringe benefits has precious little to do with deceit or exploitation.

 

[Eldanen]

INFJs can be extremely good at inciting flames and emotional drama with their Fe. ENTPs are generally more innocent and can't hide their true motivations as much. Although I hesitate to say anything absolutely.

 

[Kestrel]

I'm really hoping INFJs aren't as much of saints as the make out to be. Cos sometimes it can feel like eternity shackled to boredom. Maybe if some more evils got out then more character would be seen. For an ENFP just being nice and thoughtful rarely attracts me. It is great for society in a rigid, old fashioned, "lets do nothing wrong and make everyone else feel they have to toe the line also" way. But really come on and unleash. You are NFs!!! Bring on unplanned, wild entertainment. ENFJs have the evil in them, a bit of introversion can't change things that much.

Maybe some INFJ's are saintly, nice, and make sure everyone else toes the line. I tend to rock the boat and take conflict head on if I feel it needs to be addressed. I think Fe that only cares about the "appearance of harmony" in order to avoid conflict, is unhealthy Fe. Real Fe will get its hands dirty and take a few hits to achieve real harmony. I keep my 'inner demon' buried but I'm not afraid to unleash it in those rare moments that require a strong, aggressive, fiery presence. Being "nice and thoughtful" usually lacks impact.

My character tends to reveal itself to people over time, but only to certain people. I'm perfectly fine having average people see me as boring, since it means I get less unsolicited attention. The people who I take interest in, rarely find me boring.

 

[Silent Stars]

I also like this part here, where you proceed to read that he strongly values poetic justice, and you start to criticize it anyways. Then you expect him not to take things personally, after a very personal and heated debate. Instead of apologizing for your mayhap cross words, you simply justify them by sayign he's being personal. Blaming someone's sensitivity isn't the right way to go about things.

I see nothing wrong with anything I said; there's nothing to apologize for. If he doesn't want to be criticized ever, he shouldn't be posting on an internet forum. I had every right to comment on what he said. I was not attacking him, so there is no problem with the points I brought up. I tend to forget that not everyone is as objective as I am when things get heated, hence the misunderstanding on his part.

 

[Udog]

I was trying to describe the automatic process that I am sure all INFJ engage in when interacting with others, we are looking for clues. 'Searching' the other person. Trying to figure you out. People are puzzles. And it is not meant to be invasive, but is a way for us to 'see' you in order to relate, connect or analyze. I would feel lost without it. I don't use whatever I glean to manipulate, I just want to figure out how the other person works tbh. I very much enjoy when I get back something I wasn't expecting, though with a new person I rarely have predetermined ideas.

In my head I have a mental image of the INFJ picking up a person as if they are a new toy, and inspecting it from all different angles. The INFJ then presses various buttons, but does it oh-so-gently. They want to get enough response to gain viable information, but do not want to disturb the toy... or to be noticed. They then extrapolate this information (if I press here harder, the toy will probably do this) to learn how to probably play nicely with the toy, or make it do what they want it to do without breaking it.

Any of that ring true?

Well some are and many aren't [saints]. (INFJ can hold themselves to very high standards.)

Oh yeah, I knew one that wasn't a saint; she was a nasty piece of work. An INFJ that loses their moral compass can be pretty frightening.

So perhaps, in that respect, I define 'INFJ manipulation' as more of a form of teaching, albeit the student typically remains unaware that they've been seated at a desk, reading my scrawlings on the chalkboard at all.

When I've noticed INFJ 'manipulation', it usually comes in this form. I'm being molded, or steered in a certain direction, but never against my will.

 

[Kestrel]

I've never seen giving people guidance or steering them in a certain direction as manipulation. Because if I'm doing this, it's because someone came to me and asked for my input. I always think of manipulation as twisting someone to bend to your will, usually without them knowing it. I think INFJs mostly want people to find their own potential, and hopefully use that potential toward some kind of greater good. (Fruitless goal, I know).

I think it's easy though for INFJ's to pick up people in bad relationships or on the rebound, simply because we're so supportive. But I don't recommend doing this because the relationship is not being built on a strong foundation.

 

[Anja]

Nothing more to offer here but came back to see what's been said after my post.

I can offer some observation about what's transpired and will keep it balanced because I see no cause for blame from either faction. Some of what happened is reaction to personal experience and it appears others may have picked up on that and added their own strong feelings from some experience they have had to the mix.

It's easy to get sucked into this kind of miscommunication from the heart. Made me kinda sad as I don't see any bad guys here and I think everyone began feeling frustrated and confused about what went wrong.

I was also shocked, BMS, by some of your statements. I've read you for several months now and see you as an honorable person. The way you worded your experiences sounded like taking advantage of others.

I think you will think about this some and realize that you had slipped into a mode of thinking which may not match your true values. That's very easy to do if you've been hanging with guys that devalue their relationships with women. Maybe you'd just been stuck for a while in a mode that isn't really you?

If you take an honest look at what you said about not wanting to influence others for harm and then the violation of your personal value in doing just that for everyone to see, you can see how others may mistrust your integrity.

We all make this mistake at times. Keep plugging away at making your behavior consistently match your values and it will happen less often. You strike me as someone who is in the process.

And we are all in process of becoming our ultimate realization of self. Recognizing and owning, without excuse or explanation, when we make an error helps keep us on track.

You may grow no further than a "tit for tat" mentality and that will probably still be sufficient for a satisfying life. My guess is that you would prefer to elevate yourself beyond that position.

Maybe some of the judgementalism towards BMS's statements could have been lightened by asking a few more questions about intention. It truly is unfortunate when someone takes the risk to be honest about their less savory side only to get bombarded.

I've had it happen before and it feels pretty nasty.

What works? Honest statements. Reflective and questioning responses.

Take the judgementalism out of the interaction and it reads in a less painful way.

The personal issue between BMS and Rogue is something else and really didn't belong in a public conversation from my perspective. Boundaries!

Hope this post is useful.

I've been thinking about boundaries and the large number of people here who state that they trust few people. I think the reason is boundaries. When you don't have them you open yourself up to painful experiences which cause you not to trust.

A final comment regarding what, I think it was, Sanveanne said about manipulating others. Can't paraphrase it but it reminded me of the sympathy I sometimes feel for my mom who spent her whole life manipulating others to get her needs met.

One day it dawned on me that by her under-handedly getting her needs met, because she didn't trust others enough to do it because they loved her, she actually cheated herself out of ever knowing that she was truly loved for herself. Somewhere in her mind must have always resided that doubt, "But they only just did it because I manipulated them into doing it."

That is the true personal tragedy of manipulation.

 

[Anja]

I've never seen giving people guidance or steering them in a certain direction as manipulation. Because if I'm doing this, it's because someone came to me and asked for my input. I always think of manipulation as twisting someone to bend to your will, usually without them knowing it. I think INFJs mostly want people to find their own potential, and hopefully use that potential toward some kind of greater good. (Fruitless goal, I know).

Agreed. The comment earlier about counselors manipulating people into decisions which are good for them would be erroneous from a standard of professionalism.

A good counselor points out pros and cons and guides in what they think may be the most healthy directon for the person. The counselor's own personal gain needs to be set aside for the needs of the client.

 

[kyuuei]

Supposedly "objective" people trying to defend themselves aside, I've also noticed that although very similar, it seems as if INTJ's don't do much manipulating at all. They seem to have a very direct way of getting what they want, from the small amount I've observed. If someone comes to them for advice, they might be a bit nicer and smoother about it, but they seem to just state things very black and white.. like things are very simple from their objective viewpoint in comparison to INFJ's who approach it with a very puzzle-like mindset.

ENFPs... I think we're definitely capable of being successful manipulators.

I wish I had more input for ENTPs to add though.

 

[Metamorphosis]

For one, by definition you cannot "manipulate" someone into doing something they want.

I don't agree with this at all. Many times people know what they want they just aren't willing to do it without being convinced. Sometimes this has to be done in a manipulative manner. So what? People overestimate manipulation. Manipulation is like curling (the ice version), not football. We're not talking about brute coercion here.

On another note, I can see how some people would have interpreted his post as really negative, but I'm familiar with the details and it's not that bad.

 

[Kyrielle]

INFJs can be extremely good at inciting flames and emotional drama with their Fe. ENTPs are generally more innocent and can't hide their true motivations as much. Although I hesitate to say anything absolutely.

Only when it seems neccessary to do so. More often than not I end up trying to put out drama flames. Though, there have been times when I felt particularly spiteful and caused trouble for no decent reason. Those moments are few and far between and I have to be under some serious consistent stress for that to happen.

In my head I have a mental image of the INFJ picking up a person as if they are a new toy, and inspecting it from all different angles. The INFJ then presses various buttons, but does it oh-so-gently. They want to get enough response to gain viable information, but do not want to disturb the toy... or to be noticed. They then extrapolate this information (if I press here harder, the toy will probably do this) to learn how to probably play nicely with the toy, or make it do what they want it to do without breaking it.

Any of that ring true?

Sounds about right.

 

[Synarch]

Maybe the ENTP should collect INFJ minions to use their Ni? I think an INFJ / ENTP therapeutic team would be interesting.

 

[ByMySword]

I see nothing wrong with anything I said; there's nothing to apologize for. If he doesn't want to be criticized ever, he shouldn't be posting on an internet forum. I had every right to comment on what he said. I was not attacking him, so there is no problem with the points I brought up. I tend to forget that not everyone is as objective as I am when things get heated, hence the misunderstanding on his part.

It has nothing to do with being objective.

If you had just come out of a conflict that was very personal to you, you wouldn't want someone to start telling you what they think you did wrong immediately either.

I have no problem with being objective, but that was the wrong time for it. I wasn't in the mood. Hence, I took your criticism as personal rather than constructive.

Hindsight is 20/20.

I think its sad that one has to be careful about being honest.

 

[ByMySword]

On another note, I can see how some people would have interpreted his post as really negative, but I'm familiar with the details and it's not that bad.

No, it really isn't. lol

 

[ByMySword]

I was also shocked, BMS, by some of your statements. I've read you for several months now and see you as an honorable person. The way you worded your experiences sounded like taking advantage of others.

I can understand that. But when I tried to explain further, I wasn't allowed to, really. I was met with judgement and criticism.

I think you will think about this some and realize that you had slipped into a mode of thinking which may not match your true values. That's very easy to do if you've been hanging with guys that devalue their relationships with women. Maybe you'd just been stuck for a while in a mode that isn't really you?

There's no conflict between my mode of thinking and my values. As Meta said later above, he knows the details and it really isn't that bad.

As I've also explained, I don't take advantage of people I care about. But if I'm able to manipulate a win-win situation, I do.

This doesn't conflict with my values at all. Sorry if it does yours.

The women that know me know that my opinions of ladies are the very highest. Many of them are on here and I'm sure would vouch for that.

If you take an honest look at what you said about not wanting to influence others for harm and then the violation of your personal value in doing just that for everyone to see, you can see how others may mistrust your integrity.

When did I influence others for harm? I believe I made it clear that I don't do that.

We all make this mistake at times. Keep plugging away at making your behavior consistently match your values and it will happen less often. You strike me as someone who is in the process.

And we are all in process of becoming our ultimate realization of self. Recognizing and owning, without excuse or explanation, when we make an error helps keep us on track.

You may grow no further than a "tit for tat" mentality and that will probably still be sufficient for a satisfying life. My guess is that you would prefer to elevate yourself beyond that position.

Look, I appreciate your post and your advice, even if it is incorrect.

 

[karenk]

Wow, I feel like I have some great power of manipulation that I haven't been using.

I think the "skilled" INFJs should start leaving tips for the rest of us.