[MBTI General] Can you move from J to P?

[Maverick]

Talk to ptgatsby about FFM and the factors that correspond to MBTI (especially E/I). I have not really seen E/I change that much at all from early childhood. We simply see coping factors change, and/or ability to deal with situations that are not the optimum one. (i.e., introverts learn how to gauge their energy reserves or develop socializing skills to offset their anxiety, extroverts learn to pace themselves and also give space to introverts to participate, etc.)

Without going into the details, there is a review that indicates that personality as measured by the Big 5 tends to be somewhat consistent. But the fact that it tends to be consistent does not mean that it is impossible for it to change.

What data? (I don't necessarily disagree, I am just curious to know if you had any specific sources in mind, or if this is the culmination of your personal experiences throughout life, or what exactly.)

There are a number of articles on this that you can find from google scholar.

Most personality can't be changed, in theory, because it is genetic and biological (ie: biology, not chemical).

This is debatable... (without wanting to go in a nature vs. nurture debate, bored to death of it).

 

[ptgatsby]

This is debatable... (without wanting to go in a nature vs. nurture debate, bored to death of it).

There are tons of influences that can change things... the body is always changing. One could say that personality changes under stress, for example, where behaviour becomes eratic. Personality, virtually by definition, is the normal state of the person - the return to the norm. It is a reduction of behaviours/emotions/etc that the person has. Those shouldn't change significantly.

It isn't a debate over nature vs nurture. If the brain forms at a young age and the traits being measured are formed with it, change will be extremely difficult short of trauma. Once we reach maturation and assuming the biological structures define the trait consistently, behaviours and such aren't going to change dramatically, in a normal state of mind.

By this point most of the environmental influences have run their course, as have genetics. What change is left is fairly small.

 

[substitute]

When my dad died a while back I had to take charge of his estate as sole executor. I hadn't been expecting it one bit. Prior to this I was accustomed to running things and being in charge, having run my own businesses since I left school. But the difference was that in the business ventures, I've had a couple of ENTJ's as partners, and we've made a killer team. While with my dad's stuff, it was all down to me - just me alone.

Because it happened during the summer, both my ENTJ's were away on vacations, so I didn't have them to turn to. My Te underwent a massive, intensive crash course as relatives from all over the world were questioning me, hassling me, a funeral had to be arranged, there was dispute over the manner of disposing of the body, there was no will and a free-for-all was becoming likely, which I had to stop somehow and make a lot of very tough decisions, very quickly, whilst organising all the paperwork/legal side of things. My usual nature is to be quite trusting, but as relatives who began by being very supportive became increasingly like a pack of vultures, I became more suspicious and untrusting, and tended to look within myself for answers rather than the world of external 'cues', as is my usual way. In this way, Ni and Te got a considerable workout.

I took an MBTI test after it was all over (mostly) and came out ENTJ. I took another - ENTJ again. I left it a month and took them again - this time, one ENTJ with only slight J preference and one ENTP with only slight P preference.

Whether this means I've become ENTJ, or just am still ENTP but with unusually developed Ni and Te for my type, I don't know. But I'd suggest that if it were possible to do this one way, from P to J, I wouldn't be surprised if there were situations that might bring out the Ne and Ti in an ENTJ and 'change' him from J to P.

 

[findthejake]

i read somewhere that even some of the best tests are only right 90% of the time. Isn't it more likely then that it was my fault in the testing process since I am clearly not ENFJ and never really have been?

 

[Maverick]

It isn't a debate over nature vs nurture. If the brain forms at a young age and the traits being measured are formed with it, change will be extremely difficult short of trauma. Once we reach maturation and assuming the biological structures define the trait consistently, behaviours and such aren't going to change dramatically, in a normal state of mind.

ptgatsby Maverick

 

[quietgirl]

Whether this means I've become ENTJ, or just am still ENTP but with unusually developed Ni and Te for my type, I don't know. But I'd suggest that if it were possible to do this one way, from P to J, I wouldn't be surprised if there were situations that might bring out the Ne and Ti in an ENTJ and 'change' him from J to P.

I'd say it's situational. When my cognitive functions were tested, I had excellant use of Ni, Fe, Ti, and Ne. The first three I can see... but Ne? It's my fifth function. Provided, I do test almost even on the F/T scale, but that wouldn't bring out Ne either (as it would make me an INTJ - and I definitely don't use Te well). Then I started thinking about other factors in my life and realized that I was in the middle of a semester and had been utterly consumed by my Physics major (& Biology minor) - and I was taking an Engineering class to see if it would be a good career fit. This probably also contributed to the excellant use of Ti - my tertiary function. Now that I am no longer in the middle of a Physics major (and realized that I can't really hack it in Engineering), my type confusion has died down a bit - as has my use of Ne, I assume. The INFJ in me is now finishing up a nursing degree & considering the MCATs so I can use my hard science background to help people.

 

[substitute]

I'd say it's situational. ...

Agreed. But what happens when the 'situation' that these things develop in response to, doesn't end or carries on for years? Do these 'new' traits become habitual to the point of ingraining themselves into the personality, thereby changing type? I know that in my past I was very, very introverted, whilst now I couldn't be more extraverted if I tried! The change came about via changes in my circumstances, to which I initially responded in an artificial, deliberate manner, wanting to revert to my 'natural' state as an introvert all the time, to get things over with. But things never did change back, and now I wouldn't want them to - I adjusted to my new behaviour, came to like it and it became authentically 'me', as opposed to something I just put on when necessary.

 

[quietgirl]

Hmm. Is it possible you were an extravert the entire time and due to extenuating circumstances or your environment in the past, acted like an introvert? My mother, an ESTP, comes off rather introverted when we're at home. However in a social setting & whenever she's around people in general, she lights up and completely thrives! Growing up, I never really saw her in that setting much as she was a single mother and spent the majority of her time with her young children & I always assumed she was introverted like me. Also, both my brother and I are introverted - and very much so - so I am guessing she had to adapt to our needs a bit. It took until my brother and I were more independent of her and she started having a social life again for me to really notice the extraversion.

 

[ptgatsby]

ptgatsby Maverick

I had to try (You will be sucked in... )

Can I say something even stupider to get your to correct me? Will that get you?

 

[GZA]

I once tested as INTP, but it didn't fit me nearly as well as INFP. With INTP it had a few things that fit, but a few things that were so off it was almost offensive to my identity. I didn't change though, I was INFP all along. I think it might have been my mood, and I think I might have misinterpreted some of the questions, but whatever happened, it didn't fit as well as INFP.

I personally think that you pretty much are what you are, and there isn't a whole lot you could do to change it.

I have a very strong P preference, and its terrible for school. I'm unorganized and I go nuts in such a structured environment. I also get criticized for being unrealistic and not looking at things realistically when having a discussion. I guess people don't realize that I'm considering everything from a hypoethical point of view, not arealistic prediction of some kind. I don't try to change that though, and I don't try to fake the J, I just try to do the best I can with what I am as a person.

 

[substitute]

Hmm. Is it possible you were an extravert the entire time and due to extenuating circumstances or your environment in the past, acted like an introvert? ....

Yeah I've considered that. It could easily be the case. But it seems to me that the introverted behaviour that I displayed through most of my life up to about 5 years ago, because it was enforced over such a long period of time, became part of who I am. So whether or not I was an E before, now that I definately am, I still need quite a bit of time to myself and I'm not THAT fussed about people. I like human company well enough and I'm perfectly confident and happy in large groups, even of strangers, but I always need my down time alone.

I think part of the misunderstanding is where people too often equate extraversion with 'liking and being good with people', when that's more a secondary effect of it. It's F types that the whole 'people' stuff comes naturally with, while extraverted Thinkers don't tend to be as much people-people, specially ENT's.

 

[Blackwater]

i agree with maverick.

even big five neo-pir which has been scientifically validated at "proven" to be constant with regards to results is in wildly random until after the testees have passed 30 years of age. - that isn't really congruent with the postulate that type is constant. imo its obvious that people want type to be constant for their own peace of mind rather than because reality is indicative of it.

even jung said that type is nothing constant.

but to answer the OP; it's far more likely that you were an INFP disguised as an INFJ

 

[Maverick]

I had to try (You will be sucked in... )

Can I say something even stupider to get your to correct me? Will that get you?

Argh, clever INTP's!

i agree with maverick.

even big five neo-pir which has been scientifically validated at "proven" to be constant with regards to results is in wildly random until after the testees have passed 30 years of age. - that isn't really congruent with the postulate that type is constant. imo its obvious that people want type to be constant for their own peace of mind rather than because reality is indicative of it.

even jung said that type is nothing constant.

but to answer the OP; it's far more likely that you were an INFP disguised as an INFJ

Definitely agree.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Argh, clever INTP's!

Definitely agree.

I'll add my voice to the chore of those who agree.

Measurement error is something that is frequently handled in engineering and statistical sciences. The calculations are formed from seemingly mathematical constructions, but it ends up with questions in language, philosophy and matters of decision.

You can make a model that observed = real + observation error.

Ok, that is good. Now you notice a number 7. Is it a real 7 with no error? A real 8 with -1 error? You can guess by assuming the kind of distribution in both the error and the real thing, and then you can nail down averages and such.

So what's with type? You can DEFINE the type as the constant part and everything else as error. BUt being definition, not something that we found out, this "type constancy by definition" does not help to decide what a person's type actually is: the one tested when young, or the one tested when older, should the two of them be different.

It's more useful to study the forces to keep one's type the same and those making it change. Test error sources should be found out, too: inadequate self-analysis, bias, wishful thinking, etc.

When most important sources of error are taken care of, I believe the type constancy to be a useful concept, and reality too, to some extent. Character development, I believe, should be accurately reflected in the test results, even if that would mean the end of type constancy in the strictest sense.

 

[ptgatsby]

On a more serious note, it is important to note that most of these tests do eventually become pretty reliable. Likewise, the real question is what is being measured... and how much that changes. Up to age 20, the body is still forming all sorts of things... hormonal changes, everything. Brains don't stop truly forming till after 25 in the first place... But there is a degree of correlation that remains despite all this - weak at first but stronger as time goes on.

So the whole thing is a mixed bag but it's important to note that behavioural changes can be seen in different lights... everything from the normal growing up to hormonal imbalances... and the various other erratic factors. The point being that many of these don't affect the underlying structure - the baseline - of the mind. We just lack a good way to measure it properly... that makes the test bad, yes, but doesn't really mean our personality changes - except if you define it by the test itself.

 

[INTJMom]

In MBTI, J/P are not traits in themselves, it describes whether you extrovert a perceiving function (S or N) or a judging function (T or F).

INFP = Fi + Ne
INFJ = Ni + Fe

So shifting from J to P means that your primary and secondary functions are also different -- you have a completely different basis for your personality.

So usually it means, if you shifted to a P mode now and feel the INFP is better a description, you were forced to find closure on things while younger that you would have rather left open-ended. Environment, family, certain occupations/school, all of these things impact our ability and desire for closure...

You are really good at explaining stuff in a way that makes sense to me!

 

[INTJMom]

...Most personality can't be changed, in theory, because it is genetic and biological (ie: biology, not chemical). ...

I agree that some influence for type is in our DNA. I have a theory that that is where stereotypes come from - why whole nations of people have been categorized by a certain trait, like thrifty Scotsmen, for example.

 

[tovlo]

Anyway, is it really possible to go from a J to a P?

I tend to flip between INFP and INFJ when taking on-line MBTI tests. I don't think my actual core preferences or characteristics change though. I think my natural preferences are one thing and then what my situation requires of me is another. I accept that I have use of all eight functions. Depending on the circumstances I find myself in I may have to draw on any of them to cope effectively. Situational development of less preferred functions might affect my self-perception, and as a result the way I self-report on a test, but I now tend to think I have always used most naturally and with the least energy expenditure the infj functions.

 

[theshadow]

I've heard of several INFP's mistyped as INFJ's and vice versa. I think certain tests have a weakness for distinguishing between the J and P for INF's.

There seem to be A whole lot of us.

My personal difficulty is seeing myself as is. I spent years trying to be P... not because of mbti stuff. though. So I, to myself atl leest, look very much like an infp. that was until. I dated an infp. jk You guys are cute. Recently Ive been working on being a more congruent and whole person. again not according to type. but anyway. If I Spend tons of time Introverting J. bad things start to happen. Its hard for me to focus. my remedy? ironicly I have found that going around and organizing things. or accomplishing some task is enough to un paralyze myself and move on.

 

[Eileen]

I tend to believe that types don't change, and particularly that the J/P doesn't change (because that would mean, as Tayshaun pointed out, that you totally switch around the cognitive processes). However, I have found that I resemble a stereotypical "P" a lot of the time. INFJs and INFPs can look a lot alike when it comes to spatial organization and "vision." My desk is a DISASTER, and not even really a disaster where I know where everything is. However, I am pretty organized about time and always have some kind of general outline in mind. I just pick what I need to be anal about and what I can loosey-goose.