[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Teach me how to be a feeler.

[raz]

(Sure, some people overdo this by doing always as their friends want, but...)

Those people are called NF's.

 

[mlittrell]

even if you learn to use feeling, it will still be filtered through thinking/logic/reason so even the feeling will have a logical foundation

 

[runvardh]

Well... first you take your hand and you gently place it on someone, then move it over them nice and slow tak.... oops!

Actually, for yourself ThatGirl, you should be asking the more mature Ts on the board. They'll have a better way of explaining it.

 

[Orangey]

Yes, I think it counts. You are showing that you want to go there because you will make her happy, not because "it makes sense". It's a nice gesture. (Sure, some people overdo this by doing always as their friends want, but...)

But what if the reason it doesn't make sense to go is because it will make you feel uncomfortable or bored? In that case, isn't it still a sort of feeling guiding the decision (just one that isn't oriented outwardly)?

Anyway, I would just like to say that I actually find this thread fairly useful. The use of examples where feeling and thinking differ with decisions on the same subjects is informative. More please.

 

[nolla]

But what if the reason it doesn't make sense to go is because it will make you feel uncomfortable or bored? In that case, isn't it still a sort of feeling guiding the decision (just one that isn't oriented outwardly)?

Oh, yeah, you are right actually. I just realized that I answered a different question than ThatGirl was asking. I just jumped ahead trying to help TG get along better with her friends so I told what the feeler assumes her to do... or how a feeler would behave but that isn't what a thinker with strong feeling would do. (And to that question I don't have an answer)

 

[Orangey]

Oh, yeah, you are right actually. I just realized that I answered a different question than ThatGirl was asking. I just jumped ahead trying to help TG get along better with her friends so I told what the feeler assumes her to do... or how a feeler would behave but that isn't what a thinker with strong feeling would do. (And to that question I don't have an answer)

Ah, yes, you're right that making the decision to go to the party for the sake of her friend's feelings is a "feeler" decision.

I just wanted to point out (and this is really not directly related to anything you said) that if she had decided not to go, that might still have been a "feeling" decision (because she hates parties, or she can't stand the people who will be there).

 

[ThatGirl]

Actually I wasn't going to go because I have a million other things that take priority. I have to work the next day, and it takes more effort in planning for me to attend than she realizes. Overall that amount of effort could be more productive applied to my responsibilities and long term goal, rather than a night of indulgance.

Not to mention getting a gift

 

[raz]

Am I a feeler if I just spent 2 hours helping a guy study for his GED math test?

 

[Jeffster]

Oh, I can teach you how to be a feeler, ThatGirl. Come over to my place anytime and we'll get started.

 

[Orangey]

Actually I wasn't going to go because I have a million other things that take priority. I have to work the next day, and it takes more effort in planning for me to attend than she realizes. Overall that amount of effort could be more productive applied to my responsibilities and long term goal, rather than a night of indulgance.

Not to mention getting a gift

Hmmm...this makes me wonder what the real difference is between thinking and feeling. Your reservations for going to the party could still be construed as feeling because you value your responsibilities (and the overall benefits that attending to them can bring you in the long term) more than you value your friends feelings, which is still a judgment based on value (though I'm not saying that you don't value your friend's feelings, just using this as a scenario).

And this really gets to the crux of my problem with the whole T/F divide. Say you're in a situation where someone who is important to you (in a career utility way) says something prodigiously stupid during an informal conversation, which you disagree with on a factual or moral basis (this doesn't matter to the scenario, only the fact that you disagree matters). Regardless of what is motivating your desire to argue, you have a few choices to make...you can either ignore him/her, try to find a polite way to correct him/her, or outright argue with him/her (accepting the high possibility that this engagement will probably offend him/her).

The problem is that no matter which one of these options you choose, it will always be rooted on a base value. If you choose to ignore him/her, your decision could have been based off of utility, in which case you value the long-term career and financial benefits that you will receive if you let the error pass. Or you might not want to hurt his/her feelings, in which case you clearly value social harmony. Or you might not want him/her to think poorly of you (even though you're right) because you value the feeling of being appreciated. In all cases there's something that you value.

And even if you went about in this way and weighed the pros and cons of each potential decision (which is something that is typically grouped under "thinking"), you would still be basing your final decision on what you valued most. Essentially, I'm saying that if feeling = making judgments of value, then we are all feelers, because almost all decisions are made from values.

Or are we saying that the difference lies in the process? That the thinker would have automatically gone through the pros and cons of each choice, and the feeler would have automatically known what to decide without considering the other possibilities? That in ThatGirl's case, if she were a feeler she would not have consciously considered any other alternative to what she valued?

 

[nolla]

Interesting. Now that you put it that way... it does make it really difficult to see where exactly the difference is. Even if it is in the process, it isn't easy to point out since if I encounter something new (that I don't have valued before) I would think through the pros and the cons (if I was smart). And if a thinker encounters a familiar situation (which he has valued before) he will use the old formula (if he is efficient). So, where is the difference?

 

[Orangey]

Interesting. Now that you put it that way... it does make it really difficult to see where exactly the difference is. Even if it is in the process, it isn't easy to point out since if I encounter something new (that I don't have valued before) I would think through the pros and the cons (if I was smart). And if a thinker encounters a familiar situation (which he has valued before) he will use the old formula (if he is efficient). So, where is the difference?

Right. We may come to value something because of having weighed the pros and cons in the first place (meaning that we didn't just arrive at an instant value judgment and work from there). Or we may value something already and then use a formula based on that value to come to quicker decisions (because we are familiar with the situation, and therefore can reduce time spent thinking about it by applying a familiar formula, which is still based on a value).

 

[Lady_X]

Hmmm...this makes me wonder what the real difference is between thinking and feeling. Your reservations for going to the party could still be construed as feeling because you value your responsibilities (and the overall benefits that attending to them can bring you in the long term) more than you value your friends feelings, which is still a judgment based on value (though I'm not saying that you don't value your friend's feelings, just using this as a scenario).

And this really gets to the crux of my problem with the whole T/F divide. Say you're in a situation where someone who is important to you (in a career utility way) says something prodigiously stupid during an informal conversation, which you disagree with on a factual or moral basis (this doesn't matter to the scenario, only the fact that you disagree matters). Regardless of what is motivating your desire to argue, you have a few choices to make...you can either ignore him/her, try to find a polite way to correct him/her, or outright argue with him/her (accepting the high possibility that this engagement will probably offend him/her).

The problem is that no matter which one of these options you choose, it will always be rooted on a base value. If you choose to ignore him/her, your decision could have been based off of utility, in which case you value the long-term career and financial benefits that you will receive if you let the error pass. Or you might not want to hurt his/her feelings, in which case you clearly value social harmony. Or you might not want him/her to think poorly of you (even though you're right) because you value the feeling of being appreciated. In all cases there's something that you value.

And even if you went about in this way and weighed the pros and cons of each potential decision (which is something that is typically grouped under "thinking"), you would still be basing your final decision on what you valued most. Essentially, I'm saying that if feeling = making judgments of value, then we are all feelers, because almost all decisions are made from values.

Or are we saying that the difference lies in the process? That the thinker would have automatically gone through the pros and cons of each choice, and the feeler would have automatically known what to decide without considering the other possibilities? That in ThatGirl's case, if she were a feeler she would not have consciously considered any other alternative to what she valued?

really interesting...and this is the part of the conversation that i'd like to explore more too because it is hard to differentiate sometimes....i'm not sure i always know the difference...the only time i can be sure is when i'm in analytical mode and i'm purposely detaching from my feelings to examine them...but i can't do that in the moment or with people at all...it seems to me the opposite might be true for a thinker. ??

 

[ajblaise]

I always viewed it like this:

T's: Go about decisions in a more detached way.
F's: Go about decisions in a less detached way, and are more likely to empathize with the situation and the people involved. More likely to be influenced by feelings and values in the decision making process.

 

[nolla]

So, it is attitude to emotions? Still, that attitude is a value judgment.. isn't it?

 

[Lady_X]

i'm curious though...when you're in love with someone and being sweet and affectionate and all that...you're just feeling right? there's no detached application to feeling is there...or an intellectualized feeling...it's just natural feeling isn't it? like say i'm taking a test...i'm just thinking...i'm not having a feeling about the thinking process...while in the moment.

did that make any sense?

 

[ajblaise]

So, it is attitude to emotions? Still, that attitude is a value judgment.. isn't it?

On the "values" thing, we could ascribe values to both T and F decision making, but I think F's tend to have a more elaborate personal value framework, one that is utilized more often in the decision making process.

 

[ajblaise]

i'm curious though...when you're in love with someone and being sweet and affectionate and all that...you're just feeling right? there's no detached application to feeling is there...or an intellectualized feeling...it's just natural feeling isn't it? like say i'm taking a test...i'm just thinking...i'm not having a feeling about the thinking process...while in the moment.

did that make any sense?

I think when a T is in love, they become less detached to a degree, especially during close intimate times with their partner.

This is probably why they say "Love clouds logical judgment" and things to that effect.

 

[Jack Flak]

I think when a T is in love, they become less detached to a degree, especially during close intimate times with their partner.

This is probably why they say "Love clouds logical judgment" and things to that effect.

Yeah, that describes it about as well as I would. You can look at Ts and Fs as having habits. Ts T out of habit, and Fs F. But in love everyone Fs, and in math, everyone Ts.

 

[Lady_X]

well not a very romantic answer but thanks...i'm j/k