[INFJ] INFJ Shame

[felt up]

Ha. So true, especially the "woooo" part.

In an attempt to analyze why this happens I have come up with the following. The not being understood results from being inward, private, and not knowing how to (or desiring to) explain oneself to others. This is balanced with an underlying desire to be understood. These two things are not compatible and so one or the other must be given up if the goal is to arrive at peace about how others respond and think about oneself.

True. To be understood means you might need to expose yourself...to leave no boundaries between you and others. I do throw up walls, slam doors, and retreat to my private domain too much to be truly understood, loved, and accepted for who I am. Yes this is my dilemma. It doesn't take very much to send me to that place.

 

[sade]

^ Not all walls need to be ripped down to make good friends, the ones that understand you, in my opinion at least. Some doors can be left somewhat open, a crack to peek inside and tell them that it's sensitive or so on.. But most need to be taken down, yes. Besides being private, rather silent and comfy alone, the fear of exposure also makes it hard to volunteer information to others, if you have it. Personally.. Those doors that I leave slighly open, I'm afraid they'll scare people away.
Then again, I sense those who don't understand me. The long stares make it easy sometimes. :rolli:

But sometimes you get nice surprices.
I was shocked when I did a minor door slam on my best friend once, when I had a very very bad day. I just went to hide in my cave for.. 6 hours, while she was over at my place. And she didn't think anything of it, left me be and when I crawled out just said that I was having a bad day. But boy was I ashamed still.

 

[Dwigie]

^ Not all walls need to be ripped down to make good friends, the ones that understand you, in my opinion at least. Some doors can be left somewhat open, a crack to peek inside and tell them that it's sensitive or so on.. But most need to be taken down, yes. Besides being private, rather silent and comfy alone, the fear of exposure also makes it hard to volunteer information to others, if you have it. Personally.. Those doors that I leave slighly open, I'm afraid they'll scare people away.
Then again, I sense those who don't understand me. The long stares make it easy sometimes. :rolli:

But sometimes you get nice surprices.
I was shocked when I did a minor door slam on my best friend once, when I had a very very bad day. I just went to hide in my cave for.. 6 hours, while she was over at my place. And she didn't think anything of it, left me be and when I crawled out just said that I was having a bad day. But boy was I ashamed still.

My best friend is an isfp. She respects my privacy and is very patient, fun to be around. It's easy for us to let down our walls mutually...I still kept a few secrets but whatever, everyone has some.

 

[felt up]

^ Not all walls need to be ripped down to make good friends, the ones that understand you, in my opinion at least. Some doors can be left somewhat open, a crack to peek inside and tell them that it's sensitive or so on.. But most need to be taken down, yes. Besides being private, rather silent and comfy alone, the fear of exposure also makes it hard to volunteer information to others, if you have it. Personally.. Those doors that I leave slighly open, I'm afraid they'll scare people away.
Then again, I sense those who don't understand me. The long stares make it easy sometimes. :rolli:[/SIZE]

That's nice Sade. I guess I'm feeling a lack of faith in humanity right now.

 

[felt up]

I'm curious. How many INFJs had preachy/shaming INTJ parenting?

 

[Dwigie]

Nah, I have an isfj mom ...

 

[wedekit]

BTW, how can I find out my enneagram?

Well, for a quick test I recommend going here: Identifying Your Personality Type : The Wisdom of the Enneagram

Scroll down about 3/4 of the page and there should be the "The Riso-Hudson QUESTSM." It's only two questions, so read the instructions carefully. If you pick a type that doesn't sound like you at all, I would consider glancing at type 4 and seeing if it fits you.

I am hesitant to say this because I'm sure all those who are the exception to this "rule" will disagree... BUT it seems the majority (not all) of INFJs tend to be type 4s. I've also seen 1s and 9s, but those are in smaller percentages.

This website has individual profiles for each of the types: The Sixteen Myers-Briggs Types

Good luck!

 

[StoryOfMyLife]

I often felt this way. My mother was the main culprit at making me feel like an 'outsider'. She often placed blame on me for things which weren't my fault and told me I was hard-headed, stubborn, a bad listener, and more or less made me feel like I was just a horrible child. I won't get into too many details, but I was often reprimanded for things I couldn't even begin to see as being 'wrong'. She also used to tell me that she didn't even know who I was- in other words, when she thought she knew me, she discovered she really had no idea. She knew my 'favorites' and sometimes behavior patterns, but when it came to knowing me as a person, my mother is/was clueless and I think that frustrated the hell out of her.

I kept to myself when I was very small. I preferred playing alone until I reached a certain age and then would only play with family or friends whom I favored or felt I really liked. [In retrospect, I assume on some level I knew they understood me somehow]. I'm sort of the black sheep in our gaggle of grandchildren, too. My brother is probably the other one, though he isn't an INFJ [he isn't sure what type he is, but hasn't agreed with any of his results, so maybe he is one after all? ]. I also found that I just 'knew' things that were never taught to me. Kids at school seemed to shun me for reasons I never understood and I always knew I was not the same as they were. I was sensitive, brooding, and temperamental for a lot of my childhood and early adolescence because of it. I'm still trying to figure myself out though I've grown out of being too outwardly moody. It's something I save for when I'm alone so that I don't have to burden anybody else with my feelings.

I'm curious. How many INFJs had preachy/shaming INTJ parenting?

I wish I knew what my mother's type is. She's not an 'I' though, I know that much. If I had to guess, I'd say ExFP.. I'm indecisive on the 'S' or 'N' part. I'm still trying to figure her out, too. Definite E, definite F-- she's extroverted...but quite 'feely'...

Are you an enneagram 4? I think 4s (which I am too) relate to this more than other types.

Just did the enneagram test-- looks like I'm a 4w5, so I guess maybe it is a common '4' thing for this to happen?

 

[sade]

I'm curious. How many INFJs had preachy/shaming INTJ parenting?

ISTJ mom + INTP dad. Neither had that type of combination that you're asking. Dad did get preachy sometimes.

 

[violaine]

Shame. How has it manifested for other INFJs?

Feeling somehow different from others pretty much constitutes my earliest and strongest memories. Until the last few years or so I always struggled with that immediate flash of shame that comes from feeling you are different and *knowing* that the people you wish to understand you, may not as you want them to unless given time. But I realized that it was related to wanting to control how I'm perceived because of not being able to withstand feeling misunderstood. Painful.

The way it manifests in me of late is that I really pick and choose who I want to reveal myself to and how. Most anyone is fine if I'm given enough time as I do love people for the most part. But if someone pushes too hard or wants to go too quickly into areas I'm not ready to, I stand my ground a bit better. IRL I don't feel the pressure of explaining myself the way I used to and it seems to cut off supply to that shame 'loop' for me.

At times I try to coverup my self-consciousness up by taking pride in my 'irregularities', but when I get in that depressive space, I feel such extreme shame. I tend to take things out on myself, mainly with my insane relationship to food. When other people hurt me, I hurt myself even more.

I'm wondering about the role of intuition, the first few years of our lives and learning about ourselves in relation to the world. I gather that INFJs with high intuition (96-99% N) would have extreme shame issues...issues that would distance them from other people very early in their lives when they realize they aren't 'normal' like everyone else. Surely this discovery at 3, 4, 5 years old seemed to be a burden, because they weren't exactly sure how to verbalize it or even if they should talk about it. All they know is that it somehow made them feel alien, even in their own body.

It's weird. I can go for years at attempting some sort of 'normalcy' (at least for me) then suddenly I'll get swept under to that place where I'm not sure I will recover again. My core self has been re-traumatized, and the shame I feel is overwhelming, mainly because I'm old enough that I should have mastered these feelings.

I'm Enneagram 4 and this all sounds so Enneagram 4. The advice given for personal growth for 4s has helped me out immensely.... (heh I found the enneagram by googling something like "emotional delayed reactions" "not feeling in my body"). For me it was about building strength, in my body and in my personal identity and not over analyzing everything.

I'm curious. How many INFJs had preachy/shaming INTJ parenting?

I had a deeply religious upbringing which wasn't all bad, I think it helped me to push the less desirable qualities of unhealthy Enneagram 4 away. But it definitely had me putting myself under the microscope and holding myself to near impossible standards which will deepen any tendency toward 'shame'.

Anway the key for me was striking out on my own - trying, failing, trying again at things (doing so in private at first was key to building confidence). Also finding something that was mine, in my case a career where I can be creative and express myself freely. It has made a difference because it makes me feel 'strong' and that is something toxic feelings of shame rob you of.

I think growing up feeling 'different' is the source of shame, but feeling different can be a gift sometimes because it allows you to be deeply receptive to many people a lot of others give up on or throw away. I'm sure it's why INFJ are drawn to being therapists. I try and focus on that a little as a benefit.

 

[Sniffles]

Yes I can relate very much to what others have stated here. I have plenty of experiences and feelings in this area. I've often experienced periods of extreme shame, and often I have to be snapped out of it.

Hopefully later, I'll be able to articulate upon this later. Right now Im not in the best of moods to do so.

I will say about one factor that plays apart of my situation, how my feelings of shame can relate to my Catholic faith.

It really does irritate me when others try to bash my spiritual tradition for supposedly promoting or excaserpating such feelings of shame in myself or others. So yes, if I bring up personal issues of shame, and certainly how it relates to my faith - so many are quick to place blame on the faith.

As I see it, that's not really so. I simply do not buy the current promotion of narcissicism and self-esteem, which in reality actually leads to far worse than concentration with sin.

I remember talking to my priest about my feelings of shame, of feeling like a hypocrite and a poor Catholic. It was interesting how he responded. He basically told me to beware of such thoughts, because often the Devil wishes to promote such feelings in order to destroy our sense of faith, and our relationship with God. God does not want us to hate ourselves.

Whether or not Satan is really behind this is not important IMO, but the main point he made really did make an impression upon me. It certainly helped me gain a better perspective on the situation, and lead me more towards a sense of critical self-acceptance.

Just my rambling two cents for now.

 

[sade]

Peguy's ramblings, interesting..
I wouldn't relate religion to the feeling of shame unless it was highly brought up in the raising one has had or in the society (shame being brough up, not religion) one has grown up in. I think those people need a reminder of shame as a psychological thing that manifests stronger in others regardless of religion. Go get them boy.

 

[the state i am in]

I had a deeply religious upbringing which wasn't all bad, I think it helped me to push the less desirable qualities of unhealthy Enneagram 4 away. But it definitely had me putting myself under the microscope and holding myself to near impossible standards which will deepen any tendency toward 'shame'.

Anway the key for me was striking out on my own - trying, failing, trying again at things (doing so in private at first was key to building confidence). Also finding something that was mine, in my case a career where I can be creative and express myself freely. It has made a difference because it makes me feel 'strong' and that is something toxic feelings of shame rob you of.

I think growing up feeling 'different' is the source of shame, but feeling different can be a gift sometimes because it allows you to be deeply receptive to many people a lot of others give up on or throw away. I'm sure it's why INFJ are drawn to being therapists. I try and focus on that a little as a benefit.

i agree with much of what you said here. religious upbringing, guilt from infp mom, stoic istj dad who did not express affection in direct ways- and i think i felt like i had to do extremely well otherwise i would be disappointing to them and thusly myself.

for myself, when not understood or underappreciated or under attack, i've had a tendency to withdraw rather than fail, and it is probably the number 1 reason i am still immature. w/o testing yourself, standing up and asserting yourself, you do not realize you can take it and conquer the feelings you are afraid will pummel you into oblivion. and that the feelings of others that surround you with Fe don't have to determine what you can do and who you can become. starting small and building solid attachments to positive influences (roots) helps.

 

[Llewellyn]

Wondering

This topic and the type INFJ in general is a sure way to exercise one's mind indefinitely...

I won't chime in, as my type is 'only' INTJ. Though, foreseeing for myself, the key would be for an INFJ to be straightforward to me. Now I have to guess a lot, and it takes time and effort to maybe see what's going on (what their need is). If I would hear simply explained, I would probably make no deal of it and understand it. Now it's this awkward guessing. I would believe especially related types (like INTJ - how can it be much closer) would be able to take some. And I notice it doesn't help a bit to say to an INFJ (well, the one I have i mind) to be wondering why they are you so ashamed (about a particular thing) - no one notices it, or if they did, they wouldn't mind.
So then it doesn't feel exactly as being trusted... Seems almost the shame is there for itself - Is it somehow adding to the feeling special? (I'm aware that might sound insensitive).

Sometimes it seems the INFJ has their reactions made up already, and nothing can help or come in between.

Anyway, what I've learned is that whatever one says will be mostly - say at least 90% - about themselves, so that holds for what I say here as well.
Also, said INFJ has same complaint, that I'm not being straightforward. But, somehow I think the laws are just kept separate, so that no true exchange or mutual understanding can develop.

 

[Phantonym]

Seems almost the shame is there for itself - Is it somehow adding to the feeling special? (I'm aware that might sound insensitive).

No, I don't think so. Maybe for some people it is that way, though. Personally, I would love to get rid of this burden of shame, there's nothing special about it, it only makes the divide I already feel when I'm around people grow bigger and bigger. Feeling ashamed because of feeling the shame, haha.

 

[Torai]

I'm curious. How many INFJs had preachy/shaming INTJ parenting?

Count me as one.

 

[SubtleFighter]

This topic and the type INFJ in general is a sure way to exercise one's mind indefinitely...

I won't chime in, as my type is 'only' INTJ. Though, foreseeing for myself, the key would be for an INFJ to be straightforward to me. Now I have to guess a lot, and it takes time and effort to maybe see what's going on (what their need is). If I would hear simply explained, I would probably make no deal of it and understand it. Now it's this awkward guessing. I would believe especially related types (like INTJ - how can it be much closer) would be able to take some. And I notice it doesn't help a bit to say to an INFJ (well, the one I have i mind) to be wondering why they are you so ashamed (about a particular thing) - no one notices it, or if they did, they wouldn't mind.

The thing about INFJs (and any INFJ that doesn't agree with this, please chime in) is that most of us seem to keep our core beings closely guarded. This usually isn't anything personal to any one person (like we don't trust you specifically), but there's usually still a bit of our core that we don't show to even the people we trust the most. I can't explain really why this is, it's just maybe a combination of feeling like it will be misunderstood or not accepted. I can't really comment about the particular situation you're in or what this INFJ is not explaining, but this situation may involve this concept (or I could be very off; it's hard to tell since I don't know the specifics).

Also, about the last sentence there, I can only speak for myself as an INFJ, but if someone said that to me, I would probably think that the person is telling me that my feeling is invalid (which would hurt and anger me). It would completely depend on the way it was said, though. If I felt like they were only saying it out of pure curiosity and acknowledging that they still care about me as a person (and that my feelings are valid), then I would probably not be offended by it and see it as a sign that the person really cares about me (i.e. wanting to know more about me). But if the way it was said at all indicated that the person was invaliding my feeling, then I would become defensive and most likely trust this person less. This is because if I was telling this shame to another person, that means that I have a good measure of trust for them and feel close to them, which means that I have a great deal of investment in their opinions of me. So to share something like that with this person and having the perception that they were invaliding it would be painful.

So then it doesn't feel exactly as being trusted... Seems almost the shame is there for itself - Is it somehow adding to the feeling special? (I'm aware that might sound insensitive).

Again, it's hard for me to comment on that without knowing the specifics. But I'll chime in with Phantonym in that my own shame is definitely not something I have in order to feel special. I would be so much easier if it was gone.

Count me as one.

Count me as two.

 

[the state i am in]

This topic and the type INFJ in general is a sure way to exercise one's mind indefinitely...

I won't chime in, as my type is 'only' INTJ. Though, foreseeing for myself, the key would be for an INFJ to be straightforward to me. Now I have to guess a lot, and it takes time and effort to maybe see what's going on (what their need is). If I would hear simply explained, I would probably make no deal of it and understand it. Now it's this awkward guessing. I would believe especially related types (like INTJ - how can it be much closer) would be able to take some. And I notice it doesn't help a bit to say to an INFJ (well, the one I have i mind) to be wondering why they are you so ashamed (about a particular thing) - no one notices it, or if they did, they wouldn't mind.
So then it doesn't feel exactly as being trusted... Seems almost the shame is there for itself - Is it somehow adding to the feeling special? (I'm aware that might sound insensitive).

Sometimes it seems the INFJ has their reactions made up already, and nothing can help or come in between.

Anyway, what I've learned is that whatever one says will be mostly - say at least 90% - about themselves, so that holds for what I say here as well.
Also, said INFJ has same complaint, that I'm not being straightforward. But, somehow I think the laws are just kept separate, so that no true exchange or mutual understanding can develop.

i think you're very close. to say no, it's not a problem, don't worry about it just gives us this impression that you don't see it and that you don't see us. 4s feel envious of others and their simplicity, their naturalness, their lack of image consciousness. it's the oscillation between beauty and ugliness, feeling like goddammit that ugliness is what makes me me, that beauty is what makes me me, that beauty is arbitrary, false, deceptive, fake, that ugliness is what's real, that ugliness isn't me, this jekyll and hyde experience isn't me, i don't know what came over me, nothing can save me, i'm too wretched, i'm broken, i'm fundamentally defective, from the beginning i was destined to destroy myself. this is happening while intensely overidentifying wtih the feelings of others (e2) (worst for the sx types) while managing the hypercritical inner voice of e1 (being situated between e2 and e1). the sx just intensifies it, wanting to be dominant, to be the most powerful, to be the most beautiful, iconic, etc. the w5 also creates these schizoid tendencies, it's a double dose of withdrawing tendencies, situated in the most nihilistic space in the enneagram, feeling not only fundamentally defective but fundamentally cut off, isolated, unable to to be fully present, to be able to let go and just BE (including the inability to do this to fully BE with others).

it creates an extreme defensiveness, especially when someone might see part of you that you were not ready for them to see. because even if they do not mind, if they accept you, you feel like you can see yourself in this disfiguring light through their eyes, through this kind of projection, and you just become ashamed, you get angry for feeling ashamed, so much bitterness and hostility and sharp-edged hatred, based in the e1 kind of resentment way, just feeling disgusted, layers and layers pointed at the self and then when that starts to crumble, losing the equanimity gift to see others beyond what the social expectations placed on them, to truly see them fairly in light of their real experience.

anyway, these are just critical points of conflict. most of the e4s i know learn to handle it, but to sympathize with this actual experience of conflicts helps so much, to recognize what specific insights, authenticities, creative articulations, aesthetic richness, equanimity, ability to reconcile the beautiful with the ugly apart from whatever preconceived notions others have. these are some of the reasons why this conflict, solving this system of conflict, adds something great to the world.