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  1. #11
    somnium tenebris Powehi's Avatar
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    Here's another question - in what ways is Fe experienced and expressed outside the context of social interactions with people? Couldn't one argue that Te and Fe would be equivalent in terms of social expression but different in their focus on logic/objective vs values/subjective information processing and judgement? Could Fe be ideas based to the same degree as Te? Could Te be as socially based to the same degree as Fe? Is there a reason they would be different both being Je and both dealing with external environment whatever that happens to be?

    Many social interactions are Te-based. Managerial styles can be Te, cops, judges, lawyers, professors, casual social exchanges of ideas and debates, these can all be conducted with pure Te and they are all fundamentally social exchanges.

    So then how is Fe applied to aesthetics and art, philosophy and religion? I find in discussions that Fe is socially defined and Te idea based. I don't see how this is consistent with the theory. In the same way an INTJ can be idea based and not socially based - couldn't an INFJ also be idea based and not socially based in its expression of Fe?

  2. #12
    another world's science Earl Grey's Avatar
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    I find Te being more goal oriented. Tiny example, today, a friend was told "Hey, look, [other friend] is here, say hi!" (a stereotypically Fe thing to do)- but this one friend is very hissy, and hates talking when he doesn't like to. He just grumbled and left. The Fe may want to adhere to social norms and the social constructs, and may see the greeting as a part of a standard procedure to achieve that. A Te friend then piped up saying, "You should have let him do what he wanted."- seems superficially Fe, until you actually dig into the why;

    "If you know that might drive him away, then you need to consider which goal is more important since they [social norms & having the friend join and chat] are contradictory."

    The Te in this case is more 'flexible' because it is end-results based, so whatever fulfills those ends are what is 'best'. If saying hi to everyone does it, Te would do it, if not, then it wouldn't- EDIT: basically, being able to accept the rules of conduct, but change it depending on the end result.

    Fe will more likely poll based off the accepted norms (generalized ethics- Fe), and trip in situations where those- social norms, do not apply, or are less relevant. Or, rather than Fe being less goal-oriented it's more that they have different goals, different focuses, different roads. 'Goals' VS compliance to shared ethics- different ideas of what constitutes the desired end result so, idea-based? Sure, but it may not be for the same reasons, even if it may be towards the same (or different) ends.

    (Fi, in contrast, may stubbornly go "But I say hi to everyone! That's important to me! I don't care what you say about it!" regardless of the goal / end result, that 'dig in their heels' quality about them)

    By the way, I'm not Fe, but I am enjoying pitching in with examples of Fe incidents from Fe friends. If you want to this to be purely INFJ / Fe members' perspectives only, do tell.


    EDIT: You edited your post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    So then how is Fe applied to aesthetics and art, philosophy and religion? I find in discussions that Fe is socially defined and Te idea based. I don't see how this is consistent with the theory. In the same way an INTJ can be idea based and not socially based - couldn't an INFJ also be idea based and not socially based in its expression of Fe?
    I may be wrong, but this seems more of an N/S axis thing than a T/F one. Those subjects seem to be a more N/S focus, with the T/F delivering them in different reasons, and with different ways, and towards different ends.
    Last edited by Earl Grey; 11-08-2019 at 11:16 PM. Reason: blue is edited!
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  3. #13
    somnium tenebris Powehi's Avatar
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    @Earl Grey
    im not sure I agree about Te being more flexible about the greeting. I think Te is less likely to read subjective social nuance and will rely on accepted rules of conduct until they know clearly to change a rule for another result. A skilled Fe user will be the host that remembers each specific need and remember to place this person on the quiet end of the table and another so they can see out the window. Te would be more pragmatic and less nuanced for hints and cues that have no logical basis.
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  4. #14
    another world's science Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    @Earl Grey
    im not sure I agree about Te being more flexible about the greeting. I think Te is less likely to read subjective social nuance and will rely on accepted rules of conduct until they know clearly to change a rule for another result. A skilled Fe user will be the host that remembers each specific need and remember to place this person on the quiet end of the table and another so they can see out the window. Te would be more pragmatic and less nuanced for hints and cues that have no logical basis.
    I wanted to try express exactly this, this is what I meant by 'flexibility'- being able to accept the rules of conduct, but change it depending on the end result. I will append that to my original post. I agree with everything you have said here.
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  5. #15
    somnium tenebris Powehi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    I wanted to try express exactly this, this is what I meant by 'flexibility'- being able to accept the rules of conduct, but change it depending on the end result. I will append that to my original post. I agree with everything you have said here.
    It's also important to realize that there are differences in how INFJs use Fe so I actually want to get away from the established definition and find new ways of thinking about it because on forums that gets squashed by status quo Fe.

    My question about Fe as extroverted value based judgements being applied to ideas and not simply social exchanges is foundational to this discussion and long overdue. It has been a long-standing short sightedness to equate Fe with socialization and all other judging functions given more emphasis on processing ideas. This has nothing to do with perceiving functions. It is purely a question of judgement. I think it is one huge reason there are long-standing gross misunderstandings. It didn't occur to me until after starting this thread but it is important to hear what INFJs here think about it.

  6. #16
    another world's science Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    It's also important to realize that there are differences in how INFJs use Fe so I actually want to get away from the established definition and find new ways of thinking about it because on forums that gets squashed by status quo Fe.

    My question about Fe as extroverted value based judgements being applied to ideas and not simply social exchanges is foundational to this discussion and long overdue. It has been a long-standing short sightedness to equate Fe with socialization and all other judging functions given more emphasis on processing ideas. This has nothing to do with perceiving functions. It is purely a question of judgement. I think it is one huge reason there are long-standing gross misunderstandings. It didn't occur to me until after starting this thread but it is important to hear what INFJs here think about it.
    I see. I wasn't aware that there was a ideas vs social exchanges distinction between T(e)/F(e), let alone if it is true. I think it would help the thread to explain what is meant here by 'ideas'? How has Fe been equated to, or excluded from aesthetics, art, philosophy, religion? What are 'idea based' expressions? This is an important thing to specify, because those who may know little about this (like myself)- am having some confusion with this.

    Isn't say, social championing is a form of expressing an idea, a philosophy? Are philosophies not fundamentally oriented towards a 'way of living'- that is, people-oriented? What kind of distinction is being made between being 'idea-based' and 'socially-based'?
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  7. #17
    somnium tenebris Powehi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I've kind of blathered about this at length, so I'll just post a link to a thread I'd started (about how I perceive Fe) instead of posting everything I posted there. Historically I've been pretty vocal about how messed up Fe descriptions are (and how they lead a lot of people who are FJs or TPs to identify as FPs or TJs, amongst other consequences).

    This is maybe a succinct enough chunk to repost here:

    This thing people have about Fe users giving up personal values for harmony - I don't get where that notion comes from. I can sorta walk through an interaction where someone doesn't (or others don't) share my values without feeling inauthentic if I don't stop everything to state how my values are different - I don't see that as giving up my values though, not even remotely. My values are still very much intact inside me. I've started to think that FPs maybe can't understand compartmentalizing like that - like they're afraid their values will actually change or something if they don't state something immediately, and they assume others have an equally tenuous hold on the 'space within'. I don't know how else to make sense of it.

    My tenuous hold is on the external/interpersonal world - I see 'small fires' in the external/interpersonal world as 'potential big fires' (and tend to react according to what I anticipate they'll become, rather than what they immediately are) precisely because paying attention to the space between people is so exhausting - and superfluous work in that direction is a big deal that I avoid when/where I can.

    Using the example casc posted: "A table of old men/regulars who come into our coffee shop every day don't like our new furniture and yesterday took it upon themselves to move a table to where their old table had been - in doing so, they absconded with a bunch of chairs and thus stole all of the seating from everyone else -- leaving a long bench with little tables and no little chairs opposite the bench since they took all of them for their private little Round Table session." I don't just 'see' people moving chairs and tables around so they can sit the way they want, I also 'see' the work they are creating for other people. Exposure to people being like this - doing stuff that 'takes' from others seemingly without a second thought - tends to make me nihilistic and resentful. This could be avoided if they first laid down some disclaimers (to employees) about how they want to move stuff around, and they'll move it back when finished, and/or they'll break it up early if others come in and there's a lack of seating area (but they'd also have to be open to hearing something like "we usually have a rush of people in an hour, so it'd be helpful if you could put stuff back by then").

    I think that introverted perceiving is kind of like a Rube Goldberg contraption; incoming information tends to present itself along with potential consequences of the thing/event itself. Instant connections are made about the path a thing/event is going to take. We don't look for it, it actually just happens simultaneously. We 'see' that if someone drops a marble down Hole A, then it will (probably) knock over four dominoes and do down Tunnel J before ending up popping the balloon at the end. But if someone drops a marble down Hole B, it will set a different set of events in motion. For FJs, the 'potential consequences' usually involve interpersonal events. (For TJs, the 'potential consequences' are objective events. I don't know, insert something here about knowing that some certain behavior will destroy a carburetor.)




    I can relate a lot to this, and I can remember reading something along these lines in an INFJ description - I think it's in Lenore Thomson's book. There's something about how INFJs can tend to 'go along' with something at first, just for lack of having a strong immediate position.
    I wanted to click like on this post, but remember something about you not liking that?
    Anyway, I wanted to say this is one of the clearest Ni-Fe-Ti descriptions I have ever read. That future-oriented sense of the outcomes of external dynamics expressed through the Rube Goldberg machine that has the perfect logic underneath that appears almost random on the surface. It is one of the most apt metaphors for social outcomes possible.

    I'm actually hoping that you might have some insight into the question I made about how Fe applies to the world of judging ideas and concepts of a more subjective value-based nature. I do think I'm onto something that Fe descriptions are almost always socially imbedded more than the other judging functions. We look at Fi as how it holds moral ideals, and then the way it imposes them socially is secondary. Ti is almost never described in how it applies socially, and Te is always discussed in terms of ideas where we don't typically expect an INTJ to have any particular social needs. I get why Fe could be argued to be the most naturally skilled at social navigation because people are subjective and value based in their behaviors, but I do think Fe has overlaid with assumptions about traditionally defined extroversion and that it is incorrect. In the same way a strong Te person could be asocial and apply Te to how they judge and process ideas they encounter, perhaps a Fe person could mostly apply extroverted value judgment to how they process ideas without assuming a greater need to interact socially. How does Fe process the values and aesthetics of the history of painting or music, how does it incorporate the values of Beethoven or Monet as different from Fi? This is a very interesting question to me. And I am looking forward to your input and the input from everyone else.

    When I was younger I think I would have to type as INFJ, being very, very aligned with the type. I would organize large performances, wrote and directed a large scale musical, would conscientiously try to befriend all the social outcasts, etc. It is funny how I've changed after years of various traumas and pain. I don't know if personality type can genuinely change, or if the definition of INFJ are focused on earlier life expressions of it. Maybe I have moved through the functions in a way that I am an older INFJ that is focused on Se? I was very focused on Ti for the years I was married to Ti-doms almost to the point of seeming like a Thinker instead of Feeler.

    I have always wanted to see a video series of types describing themselves through the lifespan. I have always wanted to see a video devoted to a type where a teenager, a young adult, someone with children, middle aged, and elderly people are all discussing their relationship to type.

    Anyway, I hope my original question is addressed because I think this is extremely important to discuss Fe outside of traditional social extroversion applications of it.
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  8. #18
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    Here's another question - in what ways is Fe experienced and expressed outside the context of social interactions with people? Couldn't one argue that Te and Fe would be equivalent in terms of social expression but different in their focus on logic/objective vs values/subjective information processing and judgement? Could Fe be ideas based to the same degree as Te? Could Te be as socially based to the same degree as Fe? Is there a reason they would be different both being Je and both dealing with external environment whatever that happens to be?

    Many social interactions are Te-based. Managerial styles can be Te, cops, judges, lawyers, professors, casual social exchanges of ideas and debates, these can all be conducted with pure Te and they are all fundamentally social exchanges.

    So then how is Fe applied to aesthetics and art, philosophy and religion? I find in discussions that Fe is socially defined and Te idea based. I don't see how this is consistent with the theory. In the same way an INTJ can be idea based and not socially based - couldn't an INFJ also be idea based and not socially based in its expression of Fe?
    I really am not sure, and part of it is that I find speaking in functions doesn't end up making a whole lot of sense, since they always go in tandem with other things (hence why most Fe descriptions in actuality seem more SiFe based, and it's really difficult, if not impossible, to parse out a function in isolation as it's rather meaningless in isolation -- it has no 'goal' or anything that is providing definition for it to tie to).

    So, I am speaking here as INFJ (or rather - as one who identifies most with these dichotomies as well as NJ / FJ temperaments rather than others), and I'm purposefully (actually I do this most of the time on here) speaking of my own views and how I see it -- because we all know at this point my just spewing What NiFe is like according to theory is not going to get us anywhere we haven't already been --- per all of the other threads and simply cutting and pasting the same function definitions over and over again.

    It's first important to remember that as an introvert, anything extroverted is not the 'priority' per se. Fe is simply what is latched onto moreso than Te in terms of 'honing' Ni or being the focus of Ni. Ti will often put a harsher edge on pure Fe 'reactions'; Ti hones and provides nuance to what otherwise might be really across-the-board generalities . I do not mean this in a negative way - I mean that Ti can logically break down social interactions, deduce things, helps in bringing structure and sense to an otherwise loopy suspicion or belief/hunch that Ni might be by itself, and might add caveats to what could otherwise be an 'Always give people a second chance' Fe way of interacting with people (this example doesn't even make sense but hopefully you get the idea - I'm too tired to come up with a better one).

    Personally I think Fe ties to all sorts of things outside of being purely tied to social interaction. With NiFe it becomes almost an abstraction in less everyday sort of interactions -- it's looking at society as an almost impersonalized 'thing' and all of the pieces going into it, all of the various personalities, all of the variability and tendencies, needs, wants, what people do under stress, what people do when less stressed, what tends to happen in groups when X is done, when Y is done, what can cause a chain reaction, all of that -- it's projecting on a large scale what is likely to happen; chain reactions, ripple effects, if these people do this, those people will likely start thinking that, which will make them do this, which will .... etc etc).

    I have no input on how Fe ties to aesthetics/art, other than if someone has the desire to impact things in a certain way - create a certain 'vibe' for a building, for a group of people, for a party, whatnot, then the act of assessing how to create the proper desired 'vibe' might have ties to Fe. No idea here, just making stuff up.

    Philosophy and religion - think it ties to my paragraph on large-scale views of humanity and the world; it's people-centric, though, factoring in human emotion and personality and differences probably moreso than Te naturally would. What People/societies need psychologically to function; religion is often a psychological/emotional necessity for most people, for example. Not to say INTJ's cannot do this; INTJ's can have a good read on the 'human element', but it ends up being more along the lines of Ayn Rand visions (which in all honesty are incredibly depressing) vs, hmm, not able to come up with a good similar comparison from an INFJ.

    Here is something from my old original type thread, way way long ago in the history of typc. Several ppl chimed in at that time that it was NiFe, mostly, and an INTJ stated it was mostly Ni since he'd written many things similar to it before. Simply sharing it here to illustrate that for an INFJ (or INTJ) it's more difficult to parse out the Fe in a super meaningful way where they relate to the descriptions of Fe, because INFJ isn't driven by Fe in the first place. Also I should add that I am including it here because I think it helps illustrate an answer to your question of INFJ's and religion/philosophy -- I wrote like 60+ pages of this stuff back in 2003/2004 and it's a similar vein -- all focused on 'the people' and 'the world' and 'all of these people' and etc etc. Very people-focused, in short. Very everyone-else externally focused; not focused on my own inner landscape outside of pulling these thoughts out of it and writing them. Though this blip of it isn't religion or philosophy per se, the manner of assessing things was similar when I wrote about those topics (as opposed to.... efficiency focused? optimization focused?)

    Edit: And I again am *in no way* implying other INFJ's here or elsewhere will agree with all of the above, and I suspect they certainly won't agree with all of the below - after all we're not all clones.

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  9. #19
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    I wanted to click like on this post, but remember something about you not liking that?
    I want to address this, because I think it might actually be a good example of how 'Fe' plays out in me, but I'll spoiler it because it's not the primary question you're asking here.




    I'm actually hoping that you might have some insight into the question I made about how Fe applies to the world of judging ideas and concepts of a more subjective value-based nature. I do think I'm onto something that Fe descriptions are almost always socially imbedded more than the other judging functions. We look at Fi as how it holds moral ideals, and then the way it imposes them socially is secondary. Ti is almost never described in how it applies socially, and Te is always discussed in terms of ideas where we don't typically expect an INTJ to have any particular social needs. I get why Fe could be argued to be the most naturally skilled at social navigation because people are subjective and value based in their behaviors, but I do think Fe has overlaid with assumptions about traditionally defined extroversion and that it is incorrect. In the same way a strong Te person could be asocial and apply Te to how they judge and process ideas they encounter, perhaps a Fe person could mostly apply extroverted value judgment to how they process ideas without assuming a greater need to interact socially. How does Fe process the values and aesthetics of the history of painting or music, how does it incorporate the values of Beethoven or Monet as different from Fi? This is a very interesting question to me. And I am looking forward to your input and the input from everyone else.
    I'm not entirely sure I understand the question (I assume emphasis is on the bolded), but I'll answer what I *think* you're asking. (Lol? And though I'm clearly only truly working with knowing my own POV, I'm going on what I've perceived myself to have in common with other INFJs.)

    I'm kind of stuck on whether there is any difference, ultimately, in how different types 'process' values or aesthetics? Except maybe in speed. I mean, I can see difference in how that processing is expressed, and/or the extent to which a person might need the valuation to be a group process (i.e. extroverted vs. introverted - and frankly, I'm not convinced it's really Fe vs. Fi so much as just E vs. I). There are times when a need to 'get' the value of a popular thing comes across more like insecurity to me than actual extraversion though - like there's some fear (or something) that one is not 'incorporating' the information the right way unless it's similar to the way everyone else is doing it (at least, those who have the appearance of doing it 'correctly'). The actual appreciation though - that highly subjective reaction itself - I'm guessing that's universal?

    As far as expression of processing meets INFJ:

    I can remember it being said in the older threads that Ni has a sort of cloud of 'blankness' around it. The 'Rube Goldberg contraption of interpersonal information' takes up a lot of internal space, and in and of itself it's actually an attempt to sort information objectively (as objectively as interpersonal information can be sorted). There's a sort of aversion to classifying things directly as right/wrong or good/bad - rather, it takes notes on how others classify things as right/wrong or good/bad, but I think it looks like "blankness" because it's relatively devoid of such value judgments in itself. I do not think these values are internalized as they are observed (and mistaken as one's own, which is what the typical Fe description would suggest) so much as cataloged as potentially useful information which gets used to navigate the external environment. The experience is subjective by nature, but there's an inherent compulsion to maintain an as-objective-as-possible viewpoint of what's happening around me, between people. In fact, there's a kind of anxiety that surfaces when that objective 'footing' feels slippery.

    And so personally, in regard to ingesting (?) art and aesthetics and/or the meaning it's attempting to convey - at least, for me - I think anything that strikes me in that subjective way tends to travel slowly through the Rube Goldberg, where the information is distilled down to some core of its affect. I do like discussing that affect, but typically only with those whose opinions tend to help that subjective process (who perceive it similarly enough that their opinion contributes to my processing, instead of distracting from it). I do get enthralled when I find someone whose aesthetic so closely matches my own that their voice enhances that processing, rather than distracting from it - so I do indeed get something valuable/meaningful out of sharing that meaning with others - but for me, understanding the subjective impact of the affect takes precedence over bonding over the affect. As far as what makes people chase the deeply subjective affect vs. bonding over affect (i.e. chasing solitary meaning vs. chasing 'connecting' meaning?), I'm not sure. It might not even be a question of E vs. I so much as a person's personal attachment tendencies (how they form attachments to others).

    I actually have no idea if this answers your question. Or if it even makes sense.

    I have been somewhat interested lately in Amanda Palmer's twitter feed because her approach to chasing meaning is so different from mine. I'm guessing she's ENFP. There's an element of her presence that's constantly in need of feeling connected (?) to the audience. Or something. It's like her 'art' is built on the connection. It's very fluid. She interacts immediately to information - like information hits her already defined enough to interact with, which is something I can't begin to understand because it takes me forever to give shape to things that cause an emotional reaction in me. I'll come back later and post some screen shots of what I'm talking about (that has to be done from my phone).
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  10. #20
    Vulnera Sanentur Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    Here's another question - in what ways is Fe experienced and expressed outside the context of social interactions with people? Couldn't one argue that Te and Fe would be equivalent in terms of social expression but different in their focus on logic/objective vs values/subjective information processing and judgement? Could Fe be ideas based to the same degree as Te? Could Te be as socially based to the same degree as Fe? Is there a reason they would be different both being Je and both dealing with external environment whatever that happens to be?

    Many social interactions are Te-based. Managerial styles can be Te, cops, judges, lawyers, professors, casual social exchanges of ideas and debates, these can all be conducted with pure Te and they are all fundamentally social exchanges.

    So then how is Fe applied to aesthetics and art, philosophy and religion? I find in discussions that Fe is socially defined and Te idea based. I don't see how this is consistent with the theory. In the same way an INTJ can be idea based and not socially based - couldn't an INFJ also be idea based and not socially based in its expression of Fe?
    Both Fe and Te can be based in or focused on ideas, but the ideas might be different in nature, and pursued for different reasons. In your coffee shop example, I would have been annoyed, too, because removal of the separate chairs made the small tables less usable for other customers. So, my focus is on the lost utility, but the result might be the same. I suppose what I am saying is that the social aspect of it is not important, or is at most buried in the utility given that having a chair on the other side of the table serves mostly to enable two people to sit together.
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