[Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it

[sakuraba]

T's rationalize first, feel second.

F's feel first, think rationally second.

Simple as that.


I must also add; T and F have nothing to do with "intelligence" as it is defined by the dictionary. T and F have their strengths in different areas, but a truly intelligent, well developed person will be adept at both. We need both to survive and adapt. So don't hold the fact that someone is T or F dominant against them.

For Example: An NT can theorize all day long, analyze complicated systems, but if they cannot apply this to the real world or hold a decent enough conversation to make something out of himself; how intelligent is he really?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

FineLine's claim merit another mention.

He argues that a Ti person can be divorced from reality just as much as an Fi person as well as logical thinking is not enough for understanding reality. In other words, it is not enough to think rationally, one must also make accurate observations of reality.

I argued that thinking logically is a prerequisite for making accurate observations in reality. If a person does not think rationally, he cannot accurate organize and understand his observations.

A person who does think logically will be inspired to make accurate observations of the external world because inaccurate observations will in most case appear in his thought in a form of contradictions which he cannot tolerate.

For this reason, it is quite rare that INTPs are divorced from reality.

However, they do appear to be. As Fineline suggests, a Ti person who says it is fair to mistreat a family member seems to be divorced from reality. FineLine seems to argue that the person who behaves in a way that we deem ethically untenable must be divorced from reality. The latter does not follow from the former.

A person may have a clear understanding of reality, for instance he may be a physicist, mathematician or a philosopher yet still mistreat peole simply because he is wicked. Quite simply an understanding of reality and treating others in a way that is ethically justified.

The INTPs who behave in such a way simply do not find treating others in a respectful way to be important. When they say it is 'fair' they are simply looking for a cheap excuse to make their actions seem justifiable in the eyes of others in order to make sure others get off their case.

Again, I see no reason whatever to connect mistreating other people with a lack of objective understanding of reality.

 

[SillySapienne]

. Fis (lacking critical thinking faculties) uncritically accept such cultural norms.

Mr. Wing, have you not read any of the Fi descriptions provided in this thread?

Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?

And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I didn't say you agreed that they were flaws, as if you did, we wouldn't be debating, but I have presented them.

I have already answered this claim. There is no break between Ti and Te.

They are merely working in different direction, there is a slight disjunction between the two because the pull in one direction is stronger than the other.

Ti-Ne-Si sequence remains, however some functions need to be interposed between the two.

So quite simply, you have failed to point out an error, you must clarify further or keep looking for an error.

 

[Jack Flak]

Mr. Wing, have you not read any of the Fi descriptions provided in this thread?

Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?

And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?

Shall I tell you why this kind of thing is frustrating to me, CC? Because you lay claim to every strength there is, and admit no weakness.

 

[sakuraba]

Fi do not LACK critical thinking skills. But it is not their dominant way of dealing with things either. That does not, however, mean that they do not have these skills. It only means they usually deal with things in another manner.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?:

Lack of critical thinking skills is a result of a lack of the Thinking faculty.

:And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?:

Fi identifies with the feelings of others. Aristotle argued that we naturally imitate those that we like. And we identify with those that we like. Therefore Fi imitates people. Most people Fis associate with (inevitably as we all do ) mirror the cultural norms, therefore inevitably Fis mirror the cultural norms.

Fi however, identifies with less people than Fe as there is an unconscious attunement with the subjective valuations of the person. Fe clearly identifies with just about everything, thus explicitly mirrors the cultural norms, by imitating the most influential figures in society, or all figures rather. Yet Fi inevitably embraces cultural norms by imitating the few people the Fi identifies with.

Only when the Fi person has developed Thinking, can such a person truly embrace the introverted individualistic spirit of Fi. In that case the Fi person will have a tough-minded, systematic approach towards being true to him or herself instead of uncritically taking on board the feelings of people the Fi identifies with and inevitably mirroring them.

Thus in summary. Fi is uncritical because it lacks faculties of critical analysis. It inevitably embraces cultural norms by mirroring other people who embody cultural norms.

 

[Moiety]

Because evolution has conditioned them to relate to people in a benevolent fashion. They would not have survived if they did not learn to relate to their tribesemen. Our culture has instantiated a code of behavior where a benevolent attitude towards others is highly vouched for. Fis (lacking critical thinking faculties) uncritically accept such cultural norms.

So what about when Fi tells me to say "fuck it" to the norm, and disobey authority (the teacher in the class room, smoking marijuana even though it's illegal) and whatnot? What is there to be said about evolution and what is socially accepted, in that context?

What is there to be said about anti-death penalty activist in pro-death penalty countries where it has been used for hundreds of years? Are their values dictated by society as well?


And I'm assuming you're simply saying Fi lacks critical thinking faculties. Surely you are not trying to say Fi dominants lack critical thinking faculties?

 

[Haphazard]

Because evolution has conditioned them to relate to people in a benevolent fashion. They would not have survived if they did not learn to relate to their tribesemen. Our culture has instantiated a code of behavior where a benevolent attitude towards others is highly vouched for. Fis (lacking critical thinking faculties) uncritically accept such cultural norms.

Irrationality has is irrelevant to wickedness in this context.

If this were the case, then wouldn't there be a lot more FPs, considering how it's good for the continuation of society, and therefore survival?

 

[SillySapienne]

Fi identifies with the feelings of others. Aristotle argued that we naturally imitate those that we like. And we identify with those that we like. Therefore Fi imitates people. Most people Fis associate with (inevitably as we all do ) mirror the cultural norms, therefore inevitably Fis mirror the cultural norms.

Fi however, identifies with less people than Fe as there is an unconscious attunement with the subjective valuations of the person. Fe clearly identifies with just about everything, thus explicitly mirrors the cultural norms, by imitating the most influential figures in society, or all figures rather. Yet Fi inevitably embraces cultural norms by imitating the few people the Fi identifies with.

Only when the Fi person has developed Thinking, can such a person truly embrace the introverted individualistic spirit of Fi. In that case the Fi person will have a tough-minded, systematic approach towards being true to him or herself instead of uncritically taking on board the feelings of people the Fi identifies with and inevitably mirroring them.

Thus in summary. Fi is uncritical because it lacks faculties of critical analysis. It inevitably embraces cultural norms by mirroring other people who embody cultural norms.

Hmm, yet again, I think you failed to *really* read FineLine's, ani's, and sarah's posts, (just to name a few).

Nowhere have any of these people, including myself, alluded to Fi being a mechanism to relate to cultural norms, nowhere!!!

Cultural norms are fleeting and Fi is not really a wispy, here today, gone tomorrow, type of function.

 

[Nocapszy]

So are most other threads, but those are more enjoyable.

Also, there's potential for productivity in those other threads.

 

[SillySapienne]

F's feel first, think rationally second.

I will admit that I feel first, then think through secondly.

Shall I tell you why this kind of thing is frustrating to me, CC? Because you lay claim to every strength there is, and admit no weakness.

lolwut?

 

[disregard]

Only when the Fi person has developed Thinking, can such a person truly embrace the introverted individualistic spirit of Fi. In that case the Fi person will have a tough-minded, systematic approach towards being true to him or herself instead of uncritically taking on board the feelings of people the Fi identifies with and inevitably mirroring them.

Makes sense. I have encountered my fair share of Fis without such development. How do you think INFPs got such a soft reputation?

 

[nonsequitur]

Lack of critical thinking skills is a result of a lack of the Thinking faculty.

Fi identifies with the feelings of others.

So... it logically follows that people without their primary function being Fi are sociopaths (lack empathy) unless they "work on it" to become "balanced"?

God, the logical holes that I could drive a truck through.

 

[SillySapienne]

So are most other threads, but those are more enjoyable.

Also, there's potential for productivity in those other threads.

Lol, then what are you guys doing here!?!?.

I have found *a lot* of pearls of wisdom and insight in this thread, and have also gained more understanding about myself.

And gaining knowledge is something that I view as being a productive activity.

*shrugs*

 

[Nocapszy]

Mr. Wing, have you not read any of the Fi descriptions provided in this thread?

Wow... CC...

You are an elitist. You're the type who can't believe anything you do is bad.

Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?

That's how it works. If you're using critical thinking, you're using T.

Like...
Ugh... you're approaching the entire system completely wrong. It's more fun to toy with you which is what I've done in the past, since you literally outright refused to have me explain how it all works, but I'll give this a shot.

When you're using critical thinking, or critical logic, or strict analysis, what we call this behavior is Thinking. Just like you call your friends by their name. It's just a reference protocol. It's just a name to put to a behavior.

Ergo, if you're doing this, you are not Feeling.
So it's inherent in being an F that you don't do this much. Unless you develop your Thinking abilities.

If you can't understand then then yours is truly a hopeless case. If you disagree, then you're wrong -- probably have been misled. Either way, it's not my problem after this.

And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?

It's conducive to eliciting positive emotional feedback, which eventually remodulates as making the individual feel good.

It's not an invariable interaction, but it does happen.

 

[Nocapszy]

Lol, then what are you guys doing here!?!?.

I have found *a lot* of pearls of wisdom and insight in this thread

You've been arguing with the only true insights, just like I fucking predicted, and said in my first post in this thread that you would.

You really haven't found anything but a bunch of unstrung 'we're great' and 'i love myself because' (despite the facts) bullshit.

and have also gained more understanding about myself.

You've deluded yourself into thinking this, yes. But your stubborn refusal to accept what's true because of the obvious shortcomings and disadvantages is not only proof of everything I've said in this thread, but is, in fact, hindering progressive knowledge.

 

[SillySapienne]

WOW!!!

 

[Nocapszy]

Wow is right, dear.

 

[disregard]

CC is so far from an elitist.

If she were an elitist, she would convey the behavior and attitude of a person that thinks they are superior to others.

She never does that.