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[Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it

Simplexity

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So are you saying womens intuiton is an expression of Fi or that the only expression of Fi is womens intuition. If its the former could you not get similar intuitions( expressions of Fi) in sports situations?
 

disregard

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Here is an example...

Someone rings your doorbell at 2pm.

No one ever rings your doorbell at 2pm. There is no FedEx man in front of the house. No one is expected. You feel fear.

You open the door and it is a rapist.

Did your intuition randomly make you feel fear?

No, but your instincts told you "It does not add up to have someone ringing my doorbell at this hour."

---

Another example:

You are standing with a professor. He is standing just one or two inches too close... But you aren't 100% cognisant of it, but you feel the fear. Your body knows he was too close, crossing your boundaries and therefore not to be trusted, but your mind wasn't quite aware. Therefore you walk away going "that guy gives me the creeps" thinking it's random. It's not.

A similar example, the body can tell if someone makes eye contact just a little too long for comfort... but the mind, not so much.
 

niffer

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Hmm.. sometimes I get first impression like hunches when I'm playing sports. Like if someone is coming up behind me, or if I sense there is a goal scoring opportunity I get this strong feeling in my gut. I used to get a similar feeling when I was younger when I sensed I was about to be punished by my parents.

I do get feelings like that I guess. Like when I play basketball and I'm about to shoot I can tell beforehand if it's going to get into the basket or not; the "touch". But all these things seem kind of common sense-related.

Woman's intuition alerts you to danger. It is not a random hunch. Women are designed to be able to protect themselves and their young, so they are more in tune with perceived threats.

Well, obviously if a man randomly approaches me, who happens conveniently to be a young girl alone, or if I'm walking down a street at night and see some tough-looking guys crowding around somewhere or following me, it's something else. I'm going to be on guard.
 

Jack Flak

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I do get feelings like that I guess. Like when I play basketball and I'm about to shoot you can tell beforehand if it's going to get into the basket or not; the "touch". But all these things seem kind of common sense-related.
Se+Ti, a la ISTP. (I'm just trying to show how silly these functions are, as usual)
 

niffer

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Here is an example...

Someone rings your doorbell at 2pm.

No one ever rings your doorbell at 2pm. There is no FedEx man in front of the house. No one is expected. You feel fear.

You open the door and it is a rapist.

LOL. XDDDD I'm sorry that is just hilarious.

Another example:

You are standing with a professor. He is standing just one or two inches too close... But you aren't 100% cognisant of it, but you feel the fear. Your body knows he was too close, crossing your boundaries and therefore not to be trusted, but your mind wasn't quite aware. Therefore you walk away going "that guy gives me the creeps" thinking it's random. It's not.

A similar example, the body can tell if someone makes eye contact just a little too long for comfort... but the mind, not so much.

Really? I always know why/have a reason for someone making me feel a certain way.

I'm sorry but all these things still fall into the category of "common sense" or "taking precautions" to me.
 

Simplexity

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To give you an anecdotal example the other day I was discussing price and value with my mom and how it related to a jacket she had bought me. I don't know what I did or what I said but somehow I violated one of her core personal values by stating that It didn't matter what the initial value of the jacket was it was cheap therefore I would treat it more in accordance to its cheap price.( I wasn't gonna like have a shower in it or do something stupid) Apparently this was shocking to her and she stated that even if she gets something on sale for like 5 dollars and it's value was something like 50 dollars she would treat as if it was worth 50 dollars.

I told her that was fine and dandy but at the end of the day it was worth 5 dollars and she did get more similar items because of that fact so whether or not she was aware that she was acting based on price as opposed to value, that was what she was doing, deep down though she still felt the need to have a subjective attachment to the items "value"

Do you think that would be sort of indicative of Fi?
 

Jack Flak

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It is common sense. It is so common that it is subconscious.
Is it? Or is it so uncommon that it just blew your mind?!'

seinfeld_kramer_240x260_052820041524.jpg
 

SolitaryWalker

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I recommend not discussing intellectual matters with CC, if you are invested in them. The pursuit is devastating and horrible. This is just my advice to you, the internet.

I certainly would agree that the lack of structure in her claims is problematic because it renders her message ambiguous, and the value judgments attached to them are an unnecessary distraction.

It is manifest to me, however, that her posts reflect a notale perceptive ability. This may not offer clear answers to us, or even heuristics regarding acquistion of such answers, thought it clearly focuses our attention on many problems relevant to the topic at hand and different ways we could approach it.

In other words, despite the lack of T intellectual virtues, CC certainly has intelelctual merits associated with N.

Thus, the recommendation not to discuss intellectual matters with her strikes me as unwarrantable and thoroughly depreciatory.
 

niffer

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To give you an anecdotal example the other day I was discussing price and value with my mom and how it related to a jacket she had bought me. I don't know what I did or what I said but somehow I violated one of her core personal values by stating that It didn't matter what the initial value of the jacket was it was cheap therefore I would treat it more in accordance to its cheap price.( I wasn't gonna like have a shower in it or do something stupid) Apparently this was shocking to her and she stated that even if she gets something on sale for like 5 dollars and it's value was something like 50 dollars she would treat as if it was worth 50 dollars.

I told her that was fine and dandy but at the end of the day it was worth 5 dollars and she did get more similar items because of that fact so whether or not she was aware that she was acting based on price as opposed to value, that was what she was doing, deep down though she still felt the need to have a subjective attachment to the items "value"

Do you think that would be sort of indicative of Fi?


I would say so, but I'm not sure. What type do you think your mom is?
 

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Discussion with those who are not like-minded with you increases perspective. Increasing perspective increases objectivity (as defined in gathering clear-cut information). More clear-cut, objective information makes it easier to gain true understanding.

Exactly.

We can only approach objectivity through an intra-subjective process. That's the basic law of modern phenomenology.

---

Anyway. I'm not a Fi user, and thus, I looked at this thread as an opportunity to learn, to read what real Fi users would have to say about this function with their own words, their own experiences.
I was here to gather datas, to observe and analyze.

But it seems the whole thread was invaded by people who pretended to knew more what Fi was than real Fi users. They were here to judge, to explain how vastly superior they were compared to any of those "Feeling lunatics". They never listened.

This is what I call a severe lack of curiosity, and maturity.

This close-minded and arrogant attitude will lead them to nowhere.

To be objective, you have to listen as much opinions and advices as you can and hence, try to developp a "broader [contextual] view". The more you listen, the more you'll be able to "suspend your own judgment", to reach the Epoche (ἐποχή).

---

However, as a Ti user, I must confess I have my own biases. But at least, I try to be aware of them, again, if I want to be as effective as possible.
For instance, I think that everything can ultimately be rationalized, including Feelings. This is my great sticking point with Bluewing, as I tend to think that there's no such a thing as "pure irrationality", even within "odd" functions like Fi or Ni. Every reactions we see have a purpose, a cause and an history; and this is why I found Fineline's post to be so interesting because it was both empirical and grounded into Time, past experiences.

Nothing comes out of nowhere, and eventually, I think even Fi reactions could be modeled and predicted. But of course, the main difficulty here is that there are as much different "core values" as there are personal histories, and that is what makes Fi look so complex. And this is why we ought to especially pay attention to what any real Fi user has to say about his/her own history, his/her own perception, and respect any words they have the generosity to share with us.

---

Again, I thank people like Fineline or Geoff and many others who tried to instil some substance into this thread.
 

Jack Flak

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Thus, the recommendation not to discuss intellectual matters with her strikes me as unwarrantable and thoroughly depreciatory.
Deprecation unintended. Tactical advice for those similar to myself in intent and style, resulting from my noticing others going down the same dark path and becoming frustrated.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I'm The funny thing is most of the "insightful" posts that were referenced actually were very logically plausible unlike her own attempts.


It is true that the lack of structure in her thinking and the value judgments immanent in her posts are problematic for the reasons you mention. Specifically, they make it difficult for us to stay focused on ideas that we aspire to explore.

The prudent response to this would be to continue attempting to bring clarity and rigor to the discussion as you have been doing up to this point.

However, here, your hypocrisy and that of Flack and Nocap asserts itself with a vengeance. You all were merely stirring the pot with your invectives against her.

Lets cut the shit already and attempt to act like rational people , shall we?
 

Jack Flak

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But it seems the whole thread was invaded by people who pretended to knew more what Fi was than real Fi users. They were here to judge, to explain how vastly superior they were to any of those "Feeling lunatics". They never listened.
The unspoken intent of the OP was to derogate my position on songwriters and function use, so I had a very different reaction than if the topic were "Please explain Fi." I don't think I would have even posted if that were the case.
 

Simplexity

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Exactly.

We can only approach objectivity through an intra-subjective process. That's the basic law of modern phenomenology.

---

Anyway. I'm not a Fi user, and thus, I looked this thread as an opportunity to learn, to read what real Fi users would have to say about this function with their own words, their own experiences.
I was here to gather datas, to observe and analyze.

But it seems the whole thread was invaded by people who pretended to knew more what Fi was than real Fi users. They were here to judge, to explain how vastly superior they were to any of those "Feeling lunatics". They never listened.

This is what I call a severe lack of curiosity, and maturity.

This close-minded and arrogant attitude will lead them to nowhere.

To be objective, you have to listen as much opinions and advices as you can and hence, try to developp a "broader [contextual] view". The more you listen, the more you'll be able to "suspend your own judgment", to reach the Epoche (ἐποχή).

---

However, as a Ti user, I must confess I have my own biases. But at least, I try to be aware of them, again, if I want to be as effective as possible.
For instance, I think that everything can ultimately be rationalized, including Feelings. This my great sticking point with Bluewing, as I tend to think that there's no such a thing as "pure irrationality", even within "odd" functions like Fi or Ni. Every reaction we see has a purpose, a cause and an history; and this is why I found Fineline's post to be so interesting because it was both empirical and grounded into Time, past experiences.

Nothing comes out of nowhere, and eventually, I think even Fi reactions could be modeled and predicted. But of course, the main difficulty here is that there are as much different "core values" as there are personal histories, and that is what makes Fi look so complex. And this why we ought to especially pay attention to what any real Fi user has to say about his/her own history, his/her own perception, and respect any words they have the generosity to share with us.

---

Again, I thank people like Fineline or Geoff and many others who tried to instil some substance into this thread.

Claiming my superiority as an NT WAS NOT my intention

Yes I may not have been as smooth or tactful as was necessary but I was trying to understand it in more concrete Ti terms, thus my initial disputes tried to highlight my confusion as an attempt to have the Fi users clarify it so I could understand it better.
 

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The unspoken intent of the OP was to derogate my position on songwriters and function use, so I had a very different reaction than if the topic were "Please explain Fi." I don't think I would have even posted if that were the case.

Stop acting like a child, will you?
 

Blackmail!

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Claiming my superiority as an NT WAS NOT my intention

Yes I may not have been as smooth or tactful as was necessary but I was trying to understand it in more concrete Ti terms, thus my initial disputes tried to highlight my confusion as an attempt to have the Fi users clarify it so I could understand it better.

I understand.

But I think we should have waited a little more. Since this thread seem to have been hijacked by personal grudges, there were insufficient datas to reason with.

All we did was to frighten and alienate the real Fi users. And indeed, should I have been one of them, I wouldn't have bothered to participate in such a mess.
 

Jack Flak

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But I think we should have waited a little more. Since this thread seem to have been hijacked by personal grudges, there were insufficient datas to reason with.
Hijacked? I'm sorry, but that's just not correct, and you know how we INTPs feel about correctness. The thread title itself was a claim of superior knowledge.
 

Simplexity

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I understand.

But I think we should have waited a little more. Since this thread seem to have been hijacked by personal grudges, there were insufficient datas to reason with.

All we did was to frighten and alienate the real Fi users. And indeed, should I have been one of them, I wouldn't have bothered to participate in such a mess.

Yes I am truly sorry I can see where I may have pushed the line. I just haven't kicked the habit of arguing something to death when I feel there is an "unfair case" against me. Admittedly that wasn't the sole reason, I was a little high strung earlier from a number of different things so all those different things just served to add fuel to the fire and if I wasn't already I was about to erupt.
 
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