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View Poll Results: Which would be more attractive to you ?

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  • I want an argument. The nastier the better. Subject-irrelevant

    0 0%
  • I want a nasty argument - It should relate to a pre-existing stance

    2 5.41%
  • I want an argument with an edge- no ad hominem, though.

    10 27.03%
  • I hate to admit it, but I am more attracted to a dispute.

    4 10.81%
  • It doesn't matter to me if it is an argument or neutral, if the subject is interesting

    23 62.16%
  • I won't participate in a dispute unless I am awfully sure, and so I find arguments limiting

    7 18.92%
  • I tend to avoid most disputative threads.

    4 10.81%
  • I despise argumentative threads. They suck.

    5 13.51%
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Thread: Argument

  1. #21
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    In little words:
    Ad hominem is latin for "From the Person." Any argument which uses the person's character in it can be called an "ad hominem" argument, good or bad.

    My point is not all ad hominem arguments are bad.
    Colloquially you're quite correct. In formal debate an ad hominem is any argument which addresses the debator instead of the meat of the argument. If the debator IS the meat of the argument, there's no ad hom.

    We're not exactly doing formal debate here.

  2. #22
    Senior Member hereandnow's Avatar
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    My preference runs similiar to Hilberts but I will post a me too if the post is in need of one. As to debating it depends on the subject. If someone is putting forth myth as fact and it's a subject important to me I will insert a comment. However, as time goes by here it's likely to occur less since now it's easy to spot people who are not in for an exchange of ideas or a challenge to their orthodoxy. Or perhaps they are just dullards.
    INTP 5W6

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    You guys took all the good answers.

    ["me" crap - skip to the end, if you like, for my own questions]

    I don't much like personal attacks, and I get unsettled if I can't read whether someone is joking with me or seriously pissed off at me on a long-term basis (unless I know I did something that I knew ahead of time would piss them off... thus it was my choice).

    I don't mind a heated debate if the ground rules are set ahead of time (tacitly or blatantly) so both people are on the same page and the comments can be understood in the correct context. Or if I know the person well enough to know how to 'read' their comments and judge what their posts mean in regards to the personal/impersonal quotient of their comments. I'm not one for specific "rules" but I simply feel conversation is most productive when people understand each other's intentions and how to "read" each other, so they can respond appropriately.

    I think also that there have to be some ground rules on the logic used in the conversation. While I don't much like personal attacks, I also don't much like conversations that are so diffuse that nothing can push back on anything else, or the ideas are not allowed to sharpen each other. Forums where everyone just offers an opinion without responding to (or admitting) weaknesses in their thinking just frustrate me... or where the logic to be used is not agreed upon ahead of time, so it's impossible to reach any sort of conclusions together.

    As far as getting involved in conflicts? It depends on the topic and whether I see any glaring holes in what is being discussed. And, occasionally, if I feel like someone's being rude for a long period of time or being very unreasonable, I'll pick a fight with them just to make a point, then bail after the point is made and they get a shot back.

    I do hate getting into a detailed argument if I feel like I don't know the information as well as I should, to take things to that level. I will definitely respond if invited to, if I have an opinion or relevant knowledge.

    [resume here]

    So what are the unspoken "rules" for MBTIc, compared to INTPc? Do the tacit rules differ, do you think? Many of the same people involved here are involved there more heavily. Do the rules transfer over wholesale, or is there a different tone here?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So what are the unspoken "rules" for MBTIc, compared to INTPc? Do the tacit rules differ, do you think? Many of the same people involved here are involved there more heavily. Do the rules transfer over wholesale, or is there a different tone here?
    I don't know about anyone else, but I'm here for the different tone. It doesn't make sense to replicate the same tone, although it is heading in that direction.

    Some interesting correlations: The more Ts there are, the more personal ad-hom attacks there tend to be (!), although most people hide it in various ways (Type attacks, group attacks, etc). Another interesting correlation is that age is a dominant cause (average age, not individual age) for personal attacks. And my last correlation - the more Ps there are, the more rule breaking (EGAD! Shock!) there is.

    All my subjective view on a few boards situations. It seems like the main two dominant traits on board structure is N and J (from the admin side, how open they are and how structured it is)... but the culture of the board seems to come from T/F, where T tends towards direct (but also falls over to personal) and F tends to be more support but less willing to discuss the topic at length (often only relating, rather than challenging).

    Least, even with a whole lot of INTPs, I don't find INTPc "open" at the individual level... the open side comes from the admin (essentially, the ruleset, and if they are closed enough to just ban dissenting views, then the 'S' qualities come through too).

    [/speculation]

    (Oh, and the more Ts there are, the less you can get away with random thoughts, before the jackal NT police come to rip it apart. Rabid, I tell you.)

  5. #25

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    I prefer argument, though I'm getting less and less fond of heated ones.

    I'm 'here' - on this board, on the internet, in life in general - to create and modify a comphrensive worldview for existence. This means attacking ideas I believe do not fit, and as well, defending my own when they come under attack.

    I tend to be short on patience, though. "If I learned it at one point, so should you know it," goes my base assumption. That's what I have to consciously moderate in my responses. If I think someone's sincere, then I'll try to voice my position; if they're simply walking cliches for whatever ideology they worship, then I'm probably not going to bother, or just resort to snide remarks. Not very mature, but then again, I'm not, so why posture if I'm not being entertained by my own antics?

  6. #26
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've continued thinking about this thread and there are two qualities I value in debate:

    1. Avoids emotional distractions positive or negative.

    2. Participants have the ability to admit when they are wrong.

    Otherwise you get this which serves an entirely different purpose...

    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    But toonia, don't you like my awesome horns?! *swagger, swagger*

    Mate with me now!

  8. #28
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    But toonia, don't you like my awesome horns?! *swagger, swagger*

    Mate with me now!
    ... ?

    I suppose we could open up an anything goes, mean and nasty debate forum in which the winner gets to mate with the specimen of their choosing? Let's call it like it really is, huh?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #29
    Senior Member Alienclock's Avatar
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    edited to add... for clarity, no part of this post is really in disagreement with ptgatsbys speculation, I speculate he is right actually... just wanna make that clear. and these are my general ideas, not an attack. I have noticed this theme I would like to address

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I hate to admit it, but I am more attracted to a dispute.

    Dispute means different viewpoints. I live for understanding... and like INTPs everywhere, to provide clarity. Where else can do you do that but in a dispute? No problem saying so either.
    I appreciate disagreements because I am curious to see the flaws in my beliefs ideas etc. I would also like to be exposed to new ways of looking at stuff, and the logic behind different viewpoints. If a disagreement can further my understanding, even if I "lose" the argument its like I've won.

    I don't actually mind if someone confuses the heck out of me or if I can't tell if they are joking or serious... as long as they are not simply being mean without actually making a point... (unless they are really really creatively funny. hee hee, the bastards!)

    about getting personal...

    What is personal and what is considered impersonal? We don't know each other in RL, so how could anything be really personal? To me it crosses the line when you conclude that a certain person has perhaps portrayed systematic stupidity in posts, then every time you come across any of their comments you take a jab. Thats sorta personal, because you are not responding to their current post but to your general feelings about all of their posts, and the person that you imagine is behind the posts. Also, it kinda kills the continuity of the emotion and subject matter within the current thread.

    I think that each thread should be treated individually. Assumptions made about a person due to specific thread(s) may be unavoidable, but it would be much more pleasant if... we focused on the OP and the comments actually made within the present thread.The only type of "arguments" I don't like are the ones where it appears that certain people have made assumptions, and concluded amongst themselves that they are correct, then they sorta make hostile comments to a specific individual, regardless of how mild that persons current comments are in the current thread.

    about dogmatic rigidity and apparent stupidity... or getting "emotional"

    One more thing, please leave the typism behind. All types have the ability to be emotionally and or intellectually advanced, or retarded. Type speaks more about how you interface with and/or process the environment, and not about who you actually are, or what you actually believe.

    As to all this talk about emotions, all types are emotional. A conversation, or even debate, without emotion is sorta like two robots exchanging 1 and 0's. Its not going to happen. And if it did it would be dull, and never funny or offensive. Thinking types are in NO way vulcans, and emotions are exactly what cause people to post on a board like this one. If someone were actually a vulcan, what would be the purpose of chatting with strangers? Would you be harvesting ideas or something? Just because you PERCIEVE emotion behind a specific post does not mean that its not just a robot yanking your chain, or that the post is lacking in logic.

    Lets leave the emotional fantasy behind that certain types of humans are sitting at home typing to folks thru their pc without emotion. Thats illogical. (get mad about it )

    edited to add...

    Summary, to make arguments more yummy to me, don't bring type into unrelated discussions, its not smart. Consider each Thread (with proceeding comments ) individually, and then it wont be personal. If you want emotion left out of things, don't talk to humans, get a robot.

    (Oh, and the more Ts there are, the less you can get away with random thoughts, before the jackal NT police come to rip it apart. Rabid, I tell you.)
    Shucks, you folks are welcome to try and reign in my mind, rabies and all, I could use the help.

    And by the way, I am willing to discuss anything I think at length, and will even try to make it understandable to the T(s). Can't say I wont get on your nerves though... can't say I wont secretly think you are a little stupid for not being able to navigate the labyrinth I have set before you either. Grow, grow! emoticons in the hands of the fluffy rule!(ps vulcans were actually hyper-emotional and passionate and they had to repress their emotions in and submit to pure logic because their overly passionate nature was destroying them... I am beginning to suspect the same of some Ts... or are they just .....

  10. #30
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    incredible post alienclock. i agree agree agree.

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