How do Fe valuers experience Fi and vice versa?

[Galena]

I appreciate Fe a lot and don't have any great problem with it myself. Occasionally I question if I'm ISFJ.

Although, I seem to bother some of them more than they bother me. Not that I really step on social toes, but more for what I don't do, or what I hold back. Apparently I'm more stingy with information and my feelings than I'm aware that I am, except also more transparent in a "vibe" sort of way. Fi isn't the sole master of being sensitive to inconsistency in others. Often I do things in spite of really strong conflicting emotions because I have a higher priority principle or goal that I'm answering to and just want to get it right so badly - the interpersonal fuckup there is probably that I'm not thinking to communicate said principle clearly verbally or nonverbally and just appear really intense for no great reason, or like I'm hiding the reasons on purpose.

Also, I got caught as kid trying to sneak in little bubbles of privacy where it wasn't really that private, or it was someone else's space or time, where a better understanding of the composition of the space between me and the others would have helped me feel more secure in how and when to meet my own needs and communicate them. Some people are really sensitive to that, and it's a real talent.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

^I tend to feel this way as well. To whatever extent Fe is correlated with social environments having certain normalized expectations of behaviors from everyone to create a cooperative system, I can make my own choices in relationship to that. If I feel an environment expects things from me I can't give, then I leave the environment. It's why I don't participate in organized religion (which is Fe incarnate). I will add that Fe is not the only function that creates social pressure and normalization. I've actually experienced Ti-dom environments doing the same thing. Humans are more complex than compartmentalized certain behaviors to certain functions. I think Fe gets blamed for all of it, but any judging function can create standards and expectations that create normalization pressures.

I've had a couple of occasions when I disappointed someone based on lack of Fe response, but it wasn't the end of the world. Everyone moved past it alright. As an introvert, I don't have very high social needs, so I have a lot of freedom and autonomy to make my choices to avoid/leave situations where people need something from me I can't give.

 

[Forever_Jung]

I am tethered whether I am truly Fe or Fi

To give my experience is that usually when among social interactions is when I connect with a stranger. I feel like a panic attack is going to commence. When I *connect*, I don't understand the psychic element of what is going on. Online is much more private so I can go through with it and it feels like scary magic.

I usually communicate with logic/small talk even though I really don't prefer it. When people start to like me too much, I get to the point of uh... what do I do now.

I don't have that response of "just accept it and enjoy it"

I just blank out. I feel like this invisible force is like akin to experiencing an alien abduction. (not that I have ever been abducted... - at least thats what they want me to think )

When I connect, I feel so vulnerable, is that I could just be eaten whole by the person irl.

Idk if this even relates to Fe/Fi.


Although there is warmth in some interactions that are very practical and we're working together. That's when I feel usually the most comfortable.. it's the silence space I cannot handle with feelings. The feelings need to be put into work of togetherness and working. It's pretty much why my date life is pretty much nil. Because asking no matter how confident I am puts a tunnel vision in my mind that we're intimate now, even when that's totally not the case.

I just want to bleed (metaphorically) on them.

I think that just sounds unhealthy.

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I'm going to say that's Fi-Te/Te-Fi. Using Ti-Fe, I tend to enjoy communication that is almost obnoxiously clear. Even though I really like you, I generally find it difficult to discern what you mean. In my experience, that means I'm talking to a Fi user. I often think Fi users are outright lying to me about their internal experience, in an attempt to sound more interesting/deep. But I have talked to so many, I am beginning to think you're not all lying.

I am super close with an ENFP friend, and we really connect on a Ne basis, but sometimes she will talk about her inner experience and she just sounds mentally ill to me. I assume that's my own bias though.

She also finds my tendency to figure out how I feel via figuring out how I ought to feel (if I was reasonable and fair) to be maddening, especially when I try to help "adjust" her feelings to make more "sense". When to her, these inner experiences are akin to concrete facts (Fi values crystallizing into Te facts?), and you can't correct her feelings anymore than you can correct a rock or an ocean or something.

Also, based on your taste in music, Fi and general aesthetic I would say you use Fi. #folktypology

 

[Forever]

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I'm going to say that's Fi-Te/Te-Fi. Even though I really like you, I generally find it difficult to discern what you mean. In my experience, that means I'm talking to a Fi user. I often think Fi users are outright lying to me about their internal experience, in an attempt to sound more interesting/deep. But I have talked to so many, I am beginning to think you're not all lying.

Also, based on your taste in music, Fi and general aesthetic I would say you use Fi. #folktypology

Yes! You know not too long ago, I was researching about Fe/Ti and Fi/Te and these two practical examples were along the same lines you were saying. Since Fe/Ti users work by logic, they make a lot of sense when they speak. It's "logical" in coherence when you hear them speak regardless if it's for Fe or Ti purposes.

Fi/Te tries to express values and because their values are internal based and judge people based on that subjectivity. Whenever an Fi user shares an experience.. it becomes like so discombobulated like people are like do you speak English well? Is it your first language? And it kind of hurts to say... yeah. It's why many Fi users are private because sharing anything from within is pretty much a subjective experience highly prone to misunderstanding.

All 4 introverted JCF's are private because they are very likely to be misunderstood.

Yeah! I feel I have a good handle on what good music is for me and everyone and am lost by most mainstream bands. It's like a music judging system automatically within me. Whether people say this band sucks or not has some influence if let's say like they're immoral or not and perhaps point out something I didn't know about them, but if it's purely by aesthetic quality.. I will choose to stick to my ways of music taste.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think Te is the most matter-of-fact and clear in communication, followed by even split between Fe/Ti in different ways, and leastly Fi. Ti has a certain dichotomy of being the most objective-pure logic contrasted with pure subjectivity because it's internal. I've known Ti doms to have an absolute split of pure clarity/objectivity and pure subjectivity/incomprehensibility. Fe strives for clarity, but will apply context, so I think within a specific culture and agreed upon system, it can be the most clear of all communication, but when the context changes suddenly, it can become miscalibrated. Fi is going to be the least accessible, but Ni is moreso, so there could be some confusion assuming Ni vs. Fi.

 

[Forever]

I think Te is the most matter-of-fact and clear in communication, followed by even split between Fe/Ti in different ways, and leastly Fi. Ti has a certain dichotomy of being the most objective-pure logic contrasted with pure subjectivity because it's internal. I've known Ti doms to have an absolute split of pure clarity/objectivity and pure subjectivity/incomprehensibility. Fe strives for clarity, but will apply context, so I think within a specific culture and agreed upon system, it can be the most clear of all communication, but when the context changes suddenly, it can become miscalibrated. Fi is going to be the least accessible, but Ni is moreso, so there could be some confusion assuming Ni vs. Fi.

Would you think I'd be an INTJ or an ISFP?

When it comes to most conversations with people I hardly know. I just want to get to bottom of this. So it could make me believe I have Te. I really don't handle small talk well.


Most people I do a rote dialogue:

Hi, how are you?

Good. yourself?

Good. Good.

*nothing*

95% of my conversations. hahaha

 

[Norrsken]

It tickles me when Fi users slam their hands on the desk to scream about respecting ultimate autonomy and freedom of expressions, but upon meeting with someone who is vastly different from them, they hold no restraint to lunge after them and bully the other one into becoming their accepted definition of what an individual composes of.

Which is just nothing but a personal opinion.

Which thus makes it complete and utter bullshit.

Yes. I am very angry and emotional tonight.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Would you think I'd be an INTJ or an ISFP?

When it comes to most conversations with people I hardly know. I just want to get to bottom of this. So it could make me believe I have Te. I really don't handle small talk well.


Most people I do a rote dialogue:

Hi, how are you?

Good. yourself?

Good. Good.

*nothing*

95% of my conversations. hahaha

I don't actually know. I'm not that definitive in assuming types for people. I would say that your sig strongly suggests either Ne or Fe. Those would be the two functions that could say something like that. Your description of conversations implies Ni or Fi. I've tended to see ISFP in people like Jimi Hendrix who could say rather abstract, spacey stuff. He was considered a musical guru, so my slant on it is different than a lot of people who see it as super concrete. I suppose between INTJ and ISFP you seem more ISFP, although the tertiary Fi in INTJs gets dismissed a lot, and I've wondered if there are softer, more F-ish versions of INTJs that get mistyped.

Part of my own struggle with MBTI and Jung's theories is that I have seen definitions evolve and used in the literature that seem inconsistent to me. I also think there are fundamental parameters missing, so that two people that officially share a type can be more different from each other, than two people of completely different types. Of course culture and environment can account for such similarities/differences, but I see something more fundamental that has to do with ego strength, perhaps manipulative tendencies - which may be related to direct vs. indirect, and other parameters.

As a result I see the relationship between person and type as this...

 

[Forever]

I don't actually know. I'm not that definitive in assuming types for people. I would say that your sig strongly suggests either Ne or Fe. Those would be the two functions that could say something like that. Your description of conversations implies Ni or Fi. I've tended to see ISFP in people like Jimi Hendrix who could say rather abstract, spacey stuff. He was considered a musical guru, so my slant on it is different than a lot of people who see it as super concrete. I suppose between INTJ and ISFP you seem more ISFP, although the tertiary Fi in INTJs gets dismissed a lot, and I've wondered if there are softer, more F-ish versions of INTJs that get mistyped.

Part of my own struggle with MBTI and Jung's theories is that I have seen definitions evolve and used in the literature that seem inconsistent to me. I also think there are fundamental parameters missing, so that two people that officially share a type can be more different from each other, than two people of completely different types. Of course culture and environment can account for such similarities/differences, but I see something more fundamental that has to do with ego strength, perhaps manipulative tendencies - which may be related to direct vs. indirect, and other parameters.

As a result I see the relationship between person and type as this...

I see. Yeah my signature does change from time to time. I considered INFP. but I find it really hard even in my daily life where I employ Ne/Si or Si/Ne behaviors. Once in a while I'll try those functions out.. but I feel so unlike myself when I do. It's a growth point nonetheless.

I really am a proponent for softer INTJ's, they can still have "their foot in the mouth" syndrome or hard to relate.. but actually deeply care about the human condition given they were usually pressed outside of social groups that they decided to really retreat inward far more than their more balanced cousins around. I would argue equally for ISTJ's too.

While ISFP's have been overly stereotyped as artists.. I see myself who enjoys (but could be a function of inf Se) as a state of creating is relaxing. Perhaps ISFP's take their artwork much more critically. If I am an INTJ, yes I'm critical during the process but afterwards.. I feel a calming strength coming from the artwork. Could ISFP's be actually anxious about their finished piece? Given sensing matters more to them then let's say the intuitive?

I just say so because intuitives tend to stress out about big picture stuff a lot more consuming their lives (and unfortunately viewed as outcasts).

Also just a thought it could be more with P vs J than S vs N

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I see. Yeah my signature does change from time to time. I considered INFP. but I find it really hard even in my daily life where I employ Ne/Si or Si/Ne behaviors. Once in a while I'll try those functions out.. but I feel so unlike myself when I do. It's a growth point nonetheless.

I really am a proponent for softer INTJ's, they can still have "their foot in the mouth" syndrome or hard to relate.. but actually deeply care about the human condition given they were usually pressed outside of social groups that they decided to really retreat inward far more than their more balanced cousins around. I would argue equally for ISTJ's too.

While ISFP's have been overly stereotyped as artists.. I see myself who enjoys (but could be a function of inf Se) as a state of creating is relaxing. Perhaps ISFP's take their artwork much more critically. If I am an INTJ, yes I'm critical during the process but afterwards.. I feel a calming strength coming from the artwork. Could ISFP's be actually anxious about their finished piece? Given sensing matters more to them then let's say the intuitive?

I just say so because intuitives tend to stress out about big picture stuff a lot more consuming their lives (and unfortunately viewed as outcasts).

Also just a thought it could be more with P vs J than S vs N

Could be. I don't really believe in disputing people's types because I think there is an inner boundary where we have a right to define our own self. If we're entitled to anything, wouldn't it be that? Take that away and there's nothing.

I realize this is veering off topic a bit, and I'm not 100% on ISFP typing for myself, but I'm anxious when I can't create art. It's not really an option, and I haven't created anything of substance for a year, and I feel kinda sick. I don't fret about past creations, but let them go. I don't feel like I have to create everything perfect or be number 1 in relationship to others. I don't feel competitive and so have little really to feel anxious about criticism. What I don't like about criticism is the intrusion of it. People presume to have control over me or my process and I don't welcome that at all. What I do feel pressed to do is to convey the absolute truth of the inner world. I can't ever quite get it right, so that's my pursuit. Artistic pursuits are my rock and center, but I sometimes look up from it and see how fragile and chaotic my practical choices are - how unstable the financial future, and I get a wave of panic, but I can't really do more about it than I am. If I had to choose to work in a safe, corporate environment for years and retire well vs. freelancing, creating works of meaning and truth, and then end up a crazy homeless lady, I have to choose the latter.

 

[Forever]

People do have the key to their door, true.

Really? that's interesting? I have high anxiety when it comes to starting anything... so when I draw something entirely unplanned out... it ends up making me hate the artwork.


I noticed some of the early songs I made by just mostly samples being organized in a certain order... I really enjoyed it after giving it.. but I remember after a while.. I was like it's not me. It's not me.


I think the important thing to realize is that we're constantly changing beings and art is meant to reflect the current point of time no matter what the intention is. Like the hand print on the beach. It will wash over and become a blank slate. So we're comparing ourselves to the blank slate and not the hand print. We seem to think that the hand print has to be permanent.. sure we can take a photo of it. But the photo has only took a picture of a certain time. The time stamp on the back of it haha.

I think that what makes Art beautiful is that there's no real ending, but rather what path you feel like going on one day.. then the other. Sounds very Ne like, but Ni when pressed to infinite does become Ne and vice versa.

 

[Poki]

As a dominant Fi user, I don't want to be forced to feel my own feelings. Dominant Fe users want to feel things with you, their feelings and yours. If there might be anything sad in your life, some of them are determined to find out what it is. If that doesn't work, then they'll tell you about their sick or dead cats. I usually don't feel their feelings, but I have before. If I don't know the person well and/or don't want to, it makes me feel contaminated, confused and like I need a bath.

[MENTION=17729]Typh0n[/MENTION] I don't think this is what you wanted. Sorry!

I fully understand what your saying as I get the same impression from Te with my Ti. Though they honestly don't generally make it very far and I more look at them with a raised eyebrow type of look. I have even had them try to use "emotions" with logic to try and convince me...again...raised eyebrow. I just don't work that way...I can fake it, but don't really care to. I don't feel violated or anything as they never actually entered into my mental space. I want to understand and make my own decisions, not have things proved and pushed.

I fully understand where your coming from in regard to dealing with it. As an inferior Fe I actually hold back as I don't want to steer people. I want to know them for them because thats how team work and win-win works. I don't feel like holding up some pushy façade so why surround myself with people where I have to.

 

[Agent Washington]

I fully understand what your saying as I get the same impression from Te with my Ti. Though they honestly don't generally make it very far and I more look at them with a raised eyebrow type of look. I have even had them try to use "emotions" with logic to try and convince me...again...raised eyebrow. I just don't work that way...I can fake it, but don't really care to. I don't feel violated or anything as they never actually entered into my mental space. I want to understand and make my own decisions, not have things proved and pushed.

I fully understand where your coming from in regard to dealing with it. As an inferior Fe I actually hold back as I don't want to steer people. I want to know them for them because thats how team work and win-win works. I don't feel like holding up some pushy façade so why surround myself with people where I have to.

in comparison ti persuasion with tert and above fe is just ridiculously affective, until you (i, te user) step back and analyse the facts for myself and decide to go "fuck you"*

*this really has more to do with the pieces of shits that i have to deal with atm,but if it is construed to be applicable to all of ti / te interactions then so be it.**

**tfw si dom. i hate

 

[Poki]

in comparison ti persuasion with tert and above fe is just ridiculously affective, until you (i, te user) step back and analyse the facts for myself and decide to go "fuck you"*

*this really has more to do with the pieces of shits that i have to deal with atm,but if it is construed to be applicable to all of ti / te interactions then so be it.**

**tfw si dom. i hate

Yeah, i see that. Its when purpose and goal trump reality and truth. My ex does that alot. It bites her in the ass long term. She loses credibility, respect, and ends up surrounded by people she doesnt even enjoy because of what she put as "priority"

On positive note a mature one will steer you in directions that make you happy and raise you up in a positive manner. They are very effective, but must abide by what the really want in life, or the will get nothing but short term gain with shit ROI

I know awesome Te users i trust. They tend to be happy with life and very knowledgable. My real estate agent is one.

 

[Forever_Jung]

I don't actually know. I'm not that definitive in assuming types for people. I would say that your sig strongly suggests either Ne or Fe. Those would be the two functions that could say something like that. Your description of conversations implies Ni or Fi. I've tended to see ISFP in people like Jimi Hendrix who could say rather abstract, spacey stuff. He was considered a musical guru, so my slant on it is different than a lot of people who see it as super concrete. I suppose between INTJ and ISFP you seem more ISFP, although the tertiary Fi in INTJs gets dismissed a lot, and I've wondered if there are softer, more F-ish versions of INTJs that get mistyped.

I really don't know you or Forever very well, but you've both always vibed to me like Ni-Fi/Fi-Ni users. I sort of thought of you guys as sort of 4ish/5ish more Fish INTJs (you just always felt a bit different than the INFJ's on here, but so much of that has to do with experiences/nurture as you say in the above post). To be clear, I would never presume to tell you what your type is, that was merely my impression!

Fi/Te tries to express values and because their values are internal based and judge people based on that subjectivity. Whenever an Fi user shares an experience.. it becomes like so discombobulated like people are like do you speak English well? Is it your first language? And it kind of hurts to say... yeah. It's why many Fi users are private because sharing anything from within is pretty much a subjective experience highly prone to misunderstanding.

All 4 introverted JCF's are private because they are very likely to be misunderstood.

I don't actually claim that I make more "sense" in general. I just mean I use a lot of external agreed upon markers to make my points. I point to a lot of things I think we are all familiar with and can agree upon to explain myself. I'm just sort of that guy who gives directions and mentions LOTS of psychological landmarks, because I personally lack an internal sense of direction (Ne and Fe kind of work like this). That being said, sometimes when I speak from a Ti sort of place, people think I'm crazy. I have a reputation at work for making things incomprehensibly complicated, when it doesn't feel that way to me (people will say stuff to me like: I actually understand what you're getting at right now, which scares me a little).

Ni-Fi is like the psychological equivalent of that internal "sense". jung talks a lot about Ni users speaking in metaphors that sort of only reference their inner worlds, and only by dint of many people sharing similar symbolism will this make any sense (One patient said something like: "Doctor, there is a snake coiled inside of my belly" and expected Jung to know what the hell they were talking about). Fi is like this too, it sort of finds universality through specificity (we don't all feel the same way about everything, but we have a very similar psychological anatomy in the same way most of us have hearts, kidneys, bladders in roughly the same spot. So even if we feel differently about the same external event, it's more about perspective/experience than fundamental differences of psychological anatomy).

You say other people find you incomprehensible when you try to explain certain things. I have a very similar issue in reverse, where sometimes when people lay out Te instructions or Fi experiences, I feel like a dog trying to understand what these humans are asking of me. I often find myself screwing up my face in confusion, and asking lots of questions to clarify what the hell they're getting at. "Give me an example" is said a lot to these people. I have done this with Labyrinthine too once, when she was explaining manipulation, and it was like she was explaining herself in another language. I didn't blame her, I felt profoundly stupid.

 

[Agent Washington]

Yeah, i see that. Its when purpose and goal trump reality and truth. My ex does that alot. It bites her in the ass long term. She loses credibility, respect, and ends up surrounded by people she doesnt even enjoy because of what she put as "priority"

On positive note a mature one will steer you in directions that make you happy and raise you up in a positive manner. They are very effective, but must abide by what the really want in life, or the will get nothing but short term gain with shit ROI

I know awesome Te users i trust. They tend to be happy with life and very knowledgable. My real estate agent is one.

Pretty much what you said, yeah. The thing about Ti is that it's intrinsically capable of losing touch with reality. Hence why I stopped using Ti and trained myself to use Te.

I won't be surprised if my favourite literature prof is some kind of Fe user, where Fe is used healthily. Very supportive individual, open-minded, and generally just a good person that's aware of the grand scheme of things and yet is willing to help.

 

[Poki]

Pretty much what you said, yeah. The thing about Ti is that it's intrinsically capable of losing touch with reality. Hence why I stopped using Ti and trained myself to use Te.

I won't be surprised if my favourite literature prof is some kind of Fe user, where Fe is used healthily. Very supportive individual, open-minded, and generally just a good person that's aware of the grand scheme of things and yet is willing to help.

Yeah, i can see that. I have trained myself to just pull in immense amounts of data with keeping a focus on a goal of learning/understanding and to just piece it all together instead of losing touch. Any introverted function is intrinsically capable of losing touch with reality.

 

[Agent Washington]

Yeah, i can see that. I have trained myself to just pull in immense amounts of data with keeping a focus on a goal of learning/understanding and to just piece it all together instead of losing touch. Any introverted function is intrinsically capable of losing touch with reality.

That's pretty brilliant. If I can somehow do that with Fe.... !!

 

[Poki]

That's pretty brilliant. If I can somehow do that with Fe.... !!

I have a couple awesome IxFJ friends who use Fe like that. Instead of emotional rollercoaster IxFJs in the grip. They control who they are around to find that balance that lets them avoid that rollercoaster and provide the emotional aspects they want. I got your back, you got mine types.

Mature healthy of anytype are awesome

 

[Agent Washington]

I have a couple awesome IxFJ friends who use Fe like that. Instead of emotional rollercoaster IxFJs in the grip. They control who they are around to find that balance that lets them avoid that rollercoaster and provide the emotional aspects they want. I got your back, you got mine types.

Mature healthy of anytype are awesome

Sorry, I meant Fi. I do have a tendency to consider all view points which is why I get sucked into Ti-Fe reasoning easily (manipulative ones). The way I dealt with it was by developing Te. Fi does seem to have a blind spot of its own, which is Fe.

So, because of the nature of Fe, does that mean that it helps to control who the Fe type is around so that they don't get caught up emotionally?