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  1. #21
    Junior Member DestroyTheSpineless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    Why does it matter? Assuming you knew definitively what your type was, what then would you do with that knowledge that you cannot already do right now?
    1 year and a half of reasearch, tests, books, hours of school spent to think about it. It's not about what "I can do with my type" it's just "I wanna know my type". If so, I wouldn't be here, right? Just wasting my time maybe.

  2. #22
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DestroyTheSpineless View Post
    1 year and a half of reasearch, tests, books, hours of school spent to think about it. It's not about what "I can do with my type" it's just "I wanna know my type". If so, I wouldn't be here, right? Just wasting my time maybe.
    From the perspective of an ILI, knowledge without a purpose is a waste of time, yes.

    So that also helps to clarify you are probably not an ILI. ILIs are interested in knowledge because they want to apply it and make use of it. LII are more interested in knowledge for the sake of it, for the pure satisfaction of knowing, because the more knowledge they possess, the larger their logical framework becomes with which to explain all the aspects of reality.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

  3. #23
    Junior Member DestroyTheSpineless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    From the perspective of an ILI, knowledge without a purpose is a waste of time, yes.

    So that also helps to clarify you are probably not an ILI. ILIs are interested in knowledge because they want to apply it and make use of it. LII are more interested in knowledge for the sake of it, for the pure satisfaction of knowing, because the more knowledge they possess, the larger their logical framework becomes with which to explain all the aspects of reality.
    You may be right on this. But what about my Fe PoLR? It's so striking. An LII has Se as PoLR and Fe as suggestive function, right? I don't seem to need an emotionally positive environment and I don't like it when people try to involve me in anything that has little interest to me (such as parties). Are you sure that I really have a strong Ne? I don't like surprises or changes and yes, I value ideas, but not too many of them. I prefer choosing one and continue with that. From this point of view I'm quite practical.

  4. #24
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DestroyTheSpineless View Post
    You may be right on this. But what about my Fe PoLR? It's so striking. An LII has Se as PoLR and Fe as suggestive function, right? I don't seem to need an emotionally positive environment and I don't like it when people try to involve me in anything that has little interest to me (such as parties). Are you sure that I really have a strong Ne? I don't like surprises or changes and yes, I value ideas, but not too many of them. I prefer choosing one and continue with that. From this point of view I'm quite practical.
    I also don't like parties, and I have no interest in things that I have no interest in. (Fe not valued) Like you, I resist authority and being told what to do. (Se not valued) Like you, I do not function well in social situations. (Fe not valued) Like you, I am extremely analytical and categorical in my approach to everything. (Logic highly valued) Like you, I prefer a structured approach to things. (Rational) Like you, I consider myself practical. (Logical above ethical) However, all of these things are so generic that the same could be said of half a dozen different socionics personality types, and almost every single logical type.

    You say that you don't need an emotionally positive environment, but let's not get so swept up in socionics that we forget common sense for a moment. There is no human being, except one that is malfunctioning somehow, who does not react poorly to exposure to negativity. I invite you to study abnormal psychology, and general psychology, not just personality psychology, so that we do not lose touch with the basic facts about the human mind in an attempt to make sense of this theoretical system. It would be absurd to assume that ILIs do not react poorly to being mistreated, for example, or that ILIs do not appreciate positive reinforcement. Although I have met many socionics fanatics who seem to think that they are above the predictions of classical and operant conditioning, as researched by Pavlov, and B.F. Skinner (especially ILIs love to believe this nonsense about themselves), I assure you, it is not true.

    Be prepared to drop certain parts of socionics where they are too convoluted to be made sensible, even if it leaves large gaps in the whole model. It is better to simply reject the premises of a theory and challenge the assumptions of the entire system, especially when a simpler explanation will do just as well. It is by doing this that progress is made and the theory is improved. Never distort facts to prove a theory simply because you have invested yourself into understanding that theory. I realize you have invested yourself (already a year and a half you said), and that is dangerous to do because now it easily becomes a sunk-cost fallacy to tell yourself that you should continue to dig deeper instead of making adjustments or just abandoning the entire enterprise. Be very self-aware when it comes to this cognitive bias, as it is a deadly trap from which you will not escape if you ignore it, which will totally corrupt your understanding of the whole system - and in turn, that corruption will then spread to other systems as you begin to form connections with this one based on what you thought you knew for certain. One mistake at the foundation, and the entire mountain you build falls apart one day, and you will desperately fight to keep it from doing so because by then it becomes your life's work.

    So many people have already fallen into that trap on this website and others, so just be careful. Take my advice and just say "this is good enough" and study other systems. Then maybe eventually you can come back to this one down the road when you are wiser and older and know more about the world in general.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

  5. #25
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    Yeah, I wasn't questioning your type. But those might be traits that are common to both ILI and LII, because I certainly have all of them, but I'm definitely not ILI.

    For one thing, I'm way more agreeable and open-minded than ILI's tend to be. For me, intuition alone is not sufficient grounds to act confident. You have to earn it by doing the hard work of properly conceptualizing it as a rational argument - and even then, once you start to try and do that you quickly realize the futility of doing so, as the laws of reason, when followed dogmatically, make it incredibly hard to draw absolute conclusions about anything other than categorical definitions. An intuition on the other-hand is merely a suggestion, a possibility, not a signpost indicating the proper direction to be heading in. That tends to be the biggest difference between LII and ILI I've noticed. I use intuitions to pull myself up by the bootstraps and come up with new ideas when I need them, but they don't give me a feeling of conviction about them, instead, that feeling comes from knowing, "I have followed the ordered rules of logic that permit me to feel confident that I have spoken impeccably and without error."

    But, all the stuff you listed, as you might now see, are things an LII would probably identify with as well, since we're not so different from ILIs, except in the more subtle realm of functions. We share the same feelings and attitudes in general, are annoyed by the same things, enjoy the same things, are critical and demanding about the same things, but for different reasons, and we have a different approach.
    My Ni is quite high, it's by far my most strong function, which may differ from you. I'm quite N-oriented in almost everything I do. I just know how to act in many different situations and I'm almost never wrong. I can see the patterns and underlying reasons quickly and then proceed to action with a fairly amount of confidence, and I strongly think this is due to my intuition.
    I consider myself to be open-minded, at least more than the average ILI. On the other hand, I'm definitely not very agreeable, which causes some conflicts in my human interactions.

    Yes, I can see your point and you may be right.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

  6. #26
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    From the perspective of an ILI, knowledge without a purpose is a waste of time, yes.

    So that also helps to clarify you are probably not an ILI. ILIs are interested in knowledge because they want to apply it and make use of it. LII are more interested in knowledge for the sake of it, for the pure satisfaction of knowing, because the more knowledge they possess, the larger their logical framework becomes with which to explain all the aspects of reality.
    I disagree with you at some extent in this. I like to gain knowledge, in many different fields and many times it seems, to an outsider, that I am only doing this for the sake of knowing, learning without much application, just for the fun. But in reality, I think everything I learn can be put to good purpose in something at some point, as aleatory the subject may be. So, many times I find myself studying and learning things that seem "useless" but I feel quite confident that I'm going to use that knowledge at some point in my life.
    What I agree is, when the OP says they just want to know for the sake of knowing, it sounds that the OP doesn't care much about the application, which would not be quite ILI. But, at the same time, OP also says that it would be a waste of time posting here if it was not for knowing their type so perhaps the OP is like me, they want to understand it know knowing that, if not right now, one day this knowledge will be put to some good use. All in all, self knowledge is a powerful tool and can be fairly useful.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

  7. #27
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tchudak View Post
    I disagree with you at some extent in this. I like to gain knowledge, in many different fields and many times it seems, to an outsider, that I am only doing this for the sake of knowing, learning without much application, just for the fun. But in reality, I think everything I learn can be put to good purpose in something at some point, as aleatory the subject may be. So, many times I find myself studying and learning things that seem "useless" but I feel quite confident that I'm going to use that knowledge at some point in my life.
    What I agree is, when the OP says they just want to know for the sake of knowing, it sounds that the OP doesn't care much about the application, which would not be quite ILI. But, at the same time, OP also says that it would be a waste of time posting here if it was not for knowing their type so perhaps the OP is like me, they want to understand it know knowing that, if not right now, one day this knowledge will be put to some good use. All in all, self knowledge is a powerful tool and can be fairly useful.
    Well true, it does feel good to know stuff, and one gains a sense of confidence from it and maybe self-esteem, but here you also point out that you leave room for the possibility that at some point you might use the knowledge in your life. For the most part I'm the same, but often I will study a topic that I know has absolutely no application in my life, like for example cosmology or quantum mechanics or something like this, purely because I just find theoretical science interesting. I'm not sure if you also do the same thing, and if so, well I could also be wrong and that might be another area of overlap between ILI and LII. I really do feel these two types in particular have a great deal in common, even though they have very different cognitive function ordering and dichotomy preferences. I sympathize with the OP, I also had a hard time figuring out my own sociotype. It took me years in fact and I used to think I was an ILI for quite some time.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

  8. #28
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    Well true, it does feel good to know stuff, and one gains a sense of confidence from it and maybe self-esteem, but here you also point out that you leave room for the possibility that at some point you might use the knowledge in your life. For the most part I'm the same, but often I will study a topic that I know has absolutely no application in my life, like for example cosmology or quantum mechanics or something like this, purely because I just find theoretical science interesting. I'm not sure if you also do the same thing, and if so, well I could also be wrong and that might be another area of overlap between ILI and LII. I really do feel these two types in particular have a great deal in common, even though they have very different cognitive function ordering and dichotomy preferences. I sympathize with the OP, I also had a hard time figuring out my own sociotype. It took me years in fact and I used to think I was an ILI for quite some time.
    I also appreciate and study quantum subjects (mostly quantum physics though), but mainly because I like to work on my own theories. Of course, they are just theories but they help me understanding many non-related things, which I find quite satisfying and attribute to my strong intuition and readiness to form correlations between things that may seem completely unrelated to everyone else. For example, I'm passionated about astronomy and I don't think it's just theoretical material that I'm not going to use, I see this as a understanding of the world, and the more I know about our universe, the more I feel able to act with confidence in things I believe to be true.
    Going back to quantics, for example, if I spend my time reading quantum material, then I formulate my own theories and after that I find myself looking at things and how it affects the whole function of the world and how I could benefit from the knowledge I gained.
    lol that may even be seem a bit crazy because we are talking about quantum but that's how I work.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

  9. #29
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tchudak View Post
    I also appreciate and study quantum subjects (mostly quantum physics though), but mainly because I like to work on my own theories. Of course, they are just theories but they help me understanding many non-related things, which I find quite satisfying and attribute to my strong intuition and readiness to form correlations between things that may seem completely unrelated to everyone else. For example, I'm passionated about astronomy and I don't think it's just theoretical material that I'm not going to use, I see this as a understanding of the world, and the more I know about our universe, the more I feel able to act with confidence in things I believe to be true.
    Going back to quantics, for example, if I spend my time reading quantum material, then I formulate my own theories and after that I find myself looking at things and how it affects the whole function of the world and how I could benefit from the knowledge I gained.
    lol that may even be seem a bit crazy because we are talking about quantum but that's how I work.
    Perhaps that is the key difference between Ti and Ni lead then. We both take an interest in theory, but as you say, you are sorting through information in order to find things that are useful to your theories in order to further your understanding of the world. My approach is slightly different. I also take an interest in theory, but I am always scanning it for logical inconsistencies and systematic errors of reasoning that show cognitive biases or fallacies or weak evidence leading to weak arguments. Every new bit of information I encounter goes through this filter and is given a "rank" you might say, and placed into a hierarchy, where I decide first of all if it is valid, and second of all, how probable it is to be true. My understanding of the world is actually weakened by doing this most of the time, because as it turns out, most of the assumptions that people take for granted are irrational. As a result, I am actually increasing the overall ignorance of myself and other people, because I am showing them the inconsistencies in their conclusions. It is a deconstruction of knowledge, breaking things down into elements, then eliminating the irrational (which tends to be almost everything if you go deep enough).

    What you describe yourself doing sounds much more constructive and productive than what I do. You study theories, perhaps emphasis is placed on theories that seem useful even if only in an abstract sense, and you apply them to build something - new theories, new systems, better than before. It is like you are the engineer, drafting up new things and designing new systems, whereas I'm a cranky professor grading people's papers all day.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

  10. #30
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    Perhaps that is the key difference between Ti and Ni lead then. We both take an interest in theory, but as you say, you are sorting through information in order to find things that are useful to your theories in order to further your understanding of the world. My approach is slightly different. I also take an interest in theory, but I am always scanning it for logical inconsistencies and systematic errors of reasoning that show cognitive biases or fallacies or weak evidence leading to weak arguments. Every new bit of information I encounter goes through this filter and is given a "rank" you might say, and placed into a hierarchy, where I decide first of all if it is valid, and second of all, how probable it is to be true. My understanding of the world is actually weakened by doing this most of the time, because as it turns out, most of the assumptions that people take for granted are irrational. As a result, I am actually increasing the overall ignorance of myself and other people, because I am showing them the inconsistencies in their conclusions. It is a deconstruction of knowledge, breaking things down into elements, then eliminating the irrational (which tends to be almost everything if you go deep enough).

    What you describe yourself doing sounds much more constructive and productive than what I do. You study theories, perhaps emphasis is placed on theories that seem useful even if only in an abstract sense, and you apply them to build something - new theories, new systems, better than before. It is like you are the engineer, drafting up new things and designing new systems, whereas I'm a cranky professor grading people's papers all day.
    That was a quite interesting read, Straylight. It was especially satisfying because we share few interesses in common but, as you said, our ways and reasons for connecting to them are completely different.
    The Ni vs Ti factor if quite fascinating. On the surface, we are just people who share a things in common but in reality we have completely different ways to approach life in general.
    What I find relevant to state that I, just like you, love to spot inconsistencies and contradictions in everything, which makes me more skeptical and uninterested in people and more focused on my inner world of ideas and theories. I have that "I could save the world" mindset but the more I learn about it, the more I think it's worthless. I still try to understand everything but that's for my own sake, because I want to succeed in things I find important.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

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