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  1. #11
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obfuscate View Post
    i am intp and ili...

    i differ in not caring about time and schedules... i give no shits about time constraints the majority of the time...

    post script:

    i am also not a student...

    I'm an INTJ so that may be part of the explanation.
    What do you do for a living?

    On an unrelated note, nice avatar, mate.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

  2. #12
    c'est la vie Obfuscate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tchudak View Post
    I'm an INTJ so that may be part of the explanation.
    What do you do for a living?

    On an unrelated note, nice avatar, mate.
    i am presently a live in cna... i lean towards jobs that are mindless (so i don't need to "be there"), and jobs that require only minimal group interaction...
    "giving a fuck is my dump stat"

  3. #13
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obfuscate View Post
    i am presently a live in cna... i lean towards jobs that are mindless (so i don't need to "be there"), and jobs that require only minimal group interaction...
    I see. I also tends towards activities that don't require human interactions.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

  4. #14
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tchudak View Post
    ILI seems more accurate than LII.

    I'm an ILI myself so I'm gonna point which traits we seem to share:
    - I'm also very critical of the overall school teaching methods. In fact, I think it's pointless and dumb.
    - Couldn't care less of others think of me.
    - Love data, schemes, classifications, charts, maps.
    - I live in my head and spend most of time introspecting thinking and analyzing all sorts of things.
    - Love numbers, patterns, percentages. I don't count days, but I do count the occurrence (in %) of some events all the time.
    - I also have a sharp tongue and always speak the truth, can be very bitter sometimes.
    - People see me as encyclopedic and I have many fields of interests.
    - I'm a business/economics student but I also am very interested in statistics. I use math as a tool to make sense of the world.
    - Like to argument and debate. Mostly highly theoretical and abstract concepts, it can vary from philosophy to math.
    - Dislike any authority, matter of fact, I don't even recognize it (don't see it as a weakness though).
    - Understanding and analyzing everything is the main motto.
    - Hiding principles, abstract ideas, correlations etc.
    - Incompetence and chronically late people pisses the hell out of me. I think of it as the greatest weakness. Most people are quite dumb and brick headed but they can't help it, on the other hand, being incompetent and late are products of pure laziness, and I can't stand it.

    Tell me if that helped. Cheers from a fellow italian.
    LII-Ne here, I identify with literally every single thing you just listed.

    Just saying.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

  5. #15
    Senior Member tchudak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    LII-Ne here, I identify with literally every single thing you just listed.

    Just saying.
    lol I'm quite confident about being an ILI-Ni, in fact, no other typing system fits me better than socionics. Perhaps I've listed some common shared traits between ILI and LII. Most of all, my list was based on the OP first post, I've listed what I had in common with them.
    ''I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal" - Groucho Marx

  6. #16
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tchudak View Post
    lol I'm quite confident about being an ILI-Ni, in fact, no other typing system fits me better than socionics. Perhaps I've listed some common shared traits between ILI and LII. Most of all, my list was based on the OP first post, I've listed what I had in common with them.
    Yeah, I wasn't questioning your type. But those might be traits that are common to both ILI and LII, because I certainly have all of them, but I'm definitely not ILI.

    For one thing, I'm way more agreeable and open-minded than ILI's tend to be. For me, intuition alone is not sufficient grounds to act confident. You have to earn it by doing the hard work of properly conceptualizing it as a rational argument - and even then, once you start to try and do that you quickly realize the futility of doing so, as the laws of reason, when followed dogmatically, make it incredibly hard to draw absolute conclusions about anything other than categorical definitions. An intuition on the other-hand is merely a suggestion, a possibility, not a signpost indicating the proper direction to be heading in. That tends to be the biggest difference between LII and ILI I've noticed. I use intuitions to pull myself up by the bootstraps and come up with new ideas when I need them, but they don't give me a feeling of conviction about them, instead, that feeling comes from knowing, "I have followed the ordered rules of logic that permit me to feel confident that I have spoken impeccably and without error."

    But, all the stuff you listed, as you might now see, are things an LII would probably identify with as well, since we're not so different from ILIs, except in the more subtle realm of functions. We share the same feelings and attitudes in general, are annoyed by the same things, enjoy the same things, are critical and demanding about the same things, but for different reasons, and we have a different approach.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.
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  7. #17
    Junior Member DestroyTheSpineless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    Yeah, I wasn't questioning your type. But those might be traits that are common to both ILI and LII, because I certainly have all of them, but I'm definitely not ILI.

    For one thing, I'm way more agreeable and open-minded than ILI's tend to be. For me, intuition alone is not sufficient grounds to act confident. You have to earn it by doing the hard work of properly conceptualizing it as a rational argument - and even then, once you start to try and do that you quickly realize the futility of doing so, as the laws of reason, when followed dogmatically, make it incredibly hard to draw absolute conclusions about anything other than categorical definitions. An intuition on the other-hand is merely a suggestion, a possibility, not a signpost indicating the proper direction to be heading in. That tends to be the biggest difference between LII and ILI I've noticed. I use intuitions to pull myself up by the bootstraps and come up with new ideas when I need them, but they don't give me a feeling of conviction about them, instead, that feeling comes from knowing, "I have followed the ordered rules of logic that permit me to feel confident that I have spoken impeccably and without error."

    But, all the stuff you listed, as you might now see, are things an LII would probably identify with as well, since we're not so different from ILIs, except in the more subtle realm of functions. We share the same feelings and attitudes in general, are annoyed by the same things, enjoy the same things, are critical and demanding about the same things, but for different reasons, and we have a different approach.
    Do you think I am an ILI after all, by reading through my questionnaire?

  8. #18
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DestroyTheSpineless View Post
    Do you think I am an ILI after all, by reading through my questionnaire?
    You made a few statements that suggested LII to me. Here are some of them:

    If I know the truth I always speak up. I never criticize others for their ideas even if I know they’re wrong. I don’t like to embarrass people: I just want anything to be quiet and normal.
    ILIs tend to be more confrontational. Because their creative function is extraverted thinking, they are much more likely to correct people's mistakes and assert what is true, even if it would cause offense, because they feel a sense of satisfaction in fixing things and improving the world. ILIs cannot stand incompetence in other people and have a very low tolerance for it. Also, because they truly do not care at all what other people think or feel about them, they are not concerned with whether being critical of others would put them in a bad spot or not. To them, what is of paramount importance is getting the facts straight. Ignoring when someone gets them wrong, to an ILI, almost feels like looking the other way and allowing a crime to be committed.

    Contrast this with LII, and myself for instance. Like you, I don't ever criticize others for their ideas (even if I believe they are wrong), because I don't like to embarrass people. Notice how, when I replied to tchudak, I merely suggested additional information that implied there was more going on, but I didn't outright accuse him of saying anything false. And when he replied to me defending his type, notice again that when I responded to him a second time, I did not question his type (even though my first response would logically imply the possibility that he had mistyped himself). You see how LII's creative function manifests in this way? Rather than demonstrate firm conclusions and call people out, we make statements that imply them, which require other people to connect the dots themselves (this is how we create using intuition, by making other people use it themselves) and correct themselves.

    I can recognize any musical note, like a car horn, a bell, a beep. I also have eidetic memory: I can easily remember (by visualizing information in my mind) the tracklist of an album, the length of a song or the pages of an assignment. As you can see, I’m interested in personality typing (since 23/12/2015, I love dates) and I like anything which can be synthetized with a scheme, a map or a classification. Another hobby: thinking. Yeah, the core of my daytime. I always analyze things and I think it’s what I do most of the time. I’m also obsessed with time, counting days. On my phone I have a day counter with all my important life events (both since and until). For example, by looking at it, today I can say I've lived 5844 days.
    One of the Reinen dichotomies that LII belong to is called "static" which means you demonstrate a preference toward perceiving reality in discrete states rather than processes, which you seem to demonstrate in the above quote (discrete notes, tracklists, lengths, pages, dates, schemes, maps, classifications, counting).

    I’m quick to do anything (study in a little), they are always surprised when I calculate things fast in my mind (like square roots) or I remember dates ecc. Some say I am very good at sketching things and writing poems. Personally, I like my perfectionism: doing things giving my 100%. My willpower is one of my main traits. If I want it then I can do it. Also, ideas, ideas, ideas. My mind is always full of random ideas which may never have a practical use. I often try to exploit them and most of the time it’s a success. School is the main place where I share those ideas. This may be the reason why I have a good impression on teachers, who define me “creative”. Friends also say I have a good rethoric and like to have "inspiring" conversations, as they say, with me. I'm always punctual, often arriving at the meeting point very early (15/20 minutes before).
    Another of the Reinen dichotomies that LII belong to is called "rational" which means you demonstrate a preference for organization and strong work-ethic. You finish what you start, you are very determined, you start early and arrive early to meetings, etc. ILI belongs to "irrational" which is the exact opposite of all these things: they are usually late, they start things but don't finish them, people see them as lazy or drifting from one thing to another frequently, they are more spontaneous and do not plan things in exact detail, nor do they stick to plans very well as they tend to constantly adjust and change things along the way, often ending up somewhere totally different from where they wanted to be at first.

    Also, your "creative" impression, "inspiring" conversation, demonstrate extraverted intuition as your creative function, using it to inspire people. For contrast, ILIs are not trying to inspire people or be seen as creative. Rather, they are trying to solve problems and fix or improve things. They are always trying to optimize processes, to make processes run smoother, more efficiently. They apply that to what people say and do, and how things are built and operate, and how businesses are run, etc.

    I’m intransigent and stubborn. I like to do things my own way and it takes a lot of time before I can trust someone, after having analyzed his words and actions for days. Consequently, I’m not so adaptable in difficult situations (I consider it my greatest weakness).
    Rational again.

    There is no problem if I agree with your way of thinking, but if you want me to respect meaningless rules just because “you want it”, don’t expect me to be mild. I can become rebellious and defensive when my principles are not respected. In the end, they say I’m too precise.
    Very introverted logic here. You care more about the person's thinking than their behavior. And people see you as "too precise". Again, this is a big difference between ILI and LII. ILIs don't care what you think, as long as your behavior is logical and optimal, then it doesn't matter what you think, you see? That's the difference between extraverted thinking and introverted thinking. The introverted thinker cares about the thinking itself, because that's got to be right first before anything else can be in their minds. The extraverted thinker cares about how thought manifests in the real world, a true pragmatist - the ends justify the means. To them, whatever thinking you did, if it led you to act optimally and efficiently, then it was correct in the end. This is why ILI can cut-corners and solve problems in unconventional ways, because they don't care about building a logically ordered symmetrical system that is categorically flawless. They only need it to work and to be effective - the more effective it is the better. The shift goes from symmetry toward power. ILIs aim to show the power of their thinking, not the accuracy of it, and this makes them more powerful than LIIs in practice usually.

    Efficiency? Yes, but ideas first. Original is better than ordinary.
    Again, ILIs don't care about being original versus ordinary, they care about optimization and efficiency, because to them, all that matters is the utility and power of the systems they create. They do not need to reinvent the wheel just to be original. You put efficiency as secondary to ideas. An ILI would never do that.

    I am very dutiful. “Work first, then play” is one of my mottos. When I have not completed an assignement I feel guilty. If I am not prepared, though, I love improvising and it always results in something good. From others I expect competence, collaboration and creativity (my CCC rule).
    Rational again. In fact, you even invented a rule and gave it a name ("CCC rule") to categorically define your axiom.

    I haven't quoted most of your post, because most of it overlaps with ILI, as far as your feelings, attitudes, and opinions toward authority, how you function in groups, what you value and so forth. Your rebelliousness, your independent streak, what you think of the education system, etc, all of those are characteristics of introversion and being logical, which all logical introverts share in common.

    In my opinion you are an LII, and a very good example of one.

    If you are fascinated by Socionics, I highly recommend you do some research into it on your own. Here are two links where you can find lots of resources. The first is a list of them, the second is a wiki.

    ✦✦✦ Socionics Links ✦✦✦

    Wikisocion
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.
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  9. #19
    Junior Member DestroyTheSpineless's Avatar
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    @Straylight: It makes sense. At this point my indecisiveness reached its peak. I seem to have a lot of LII and ILI traits. I've been struggling for exactly 509 to decide whether I was an INTP or an INTJ in MBTI, then I discovered Socionics and I decided to give it up. Now I'm in the same situation. I'm so confused...

  10. #20
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DestroyTheSpineless View Post
    @Straylight: It makes sense. At this point my indecisiveness reached its peak. I seem to have a lot of LII and ILI traits. I've been struggling for exactly 509 to decide whether I was an INTP or an INTJ in MBTI, then I discovered Socionics and I decided to give it up. Now I'm in the same situation. I'm so confused...
    Why does it matter? Assuming you knew definitively what your type was, what then would you do with that knowledge that you cannot already do right now?

    Alternatively, consider the following approach: simply move forward as if you knew what your type was, make an assumption, flip a coin even, and proceed in an experimental sense. Consider it an experiment to see if it makes a difference which type you identify as. It may be that it does not really matter and you can pick either one. Even if you were, ultimately "wrong" - it practically would not matter. Consider, all of science is based on this sort of approach really. It would be useless to remain "stuck" on one problem forever simply because it cannot be easily sorted into some discretely logical category. Often you must simply make an educated guess and say, "we aren't sure, but we have strong reasons to believe it is either X or Y, so we proceed as if it is X for the time being."
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

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