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Identity Relationships (ever been in one? what was it like?)

Kheledon

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Socionics postulates that the ideal relationship is one of duality--opposite preference in all functions except the j/p axis (which must match). ENFj and ISTj, for example, are duals.

Many believe, however, that identity relationships are "second best" of our available choices in Socionics theory. Here, for example: Relations between Psychological ("personality") Types

Thus, my question to the forum. Whom among us has been in an identity relationship? What was it like? What were its advantages? What were its disadvantages? If this relationship failed, why?

I ask for this reason. It appears that it is extremely difficult for an ENFj to find, identify, recognize, and fall in love with its dual. Take a look at the following chart:

soc-rel-graph1.jpg


http://socionic.info/pdf/couples.pdf

As you can see from this study's results, EIE :)Fe: :Ni:, in teal) and LSI :)Ti: :Se:, in orange) appear to have the hardest time of all the Sociotypes in finding and uniting with their duals. As such, wouldn't an identity relationship be a good option? I'd like to hear from those who have experienced an identity relationship, and not just EIEs and LSIs.

Thoughts? :shrug:
 

ZNP-TBA

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[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION]

In other words the identity relationship is the same type as you? If that's the case then no.

Never been in a duality relationship but on the face of it I don't see how an ISFp would like my type in theory.

Most significant relationships I've had were with ESFp, INFp, INFj.
 

Kheledon

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[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION]

In other words the identity relationship is the same type as you?

Yes. An identity relationship is one composed of two people of the exact same Sociotype (i.e. ENTp and ENTp in your case). It appears that, for all of us, it's difficult to recognize and "fall in love" with one's dual because one's dual is so very different. All the same, duality relationships do seem to offer the best chance that people have to form lasting, loving, and well-functioning relationships. That's why chemistry needs to come first. It appears that one must be attracted to (voice, appearance, smell, and all other S data) one's dual in order to be able to "fall in love," and that experience of "falling in love" is, actually, your brain telling you in the strongest possible way, that the object of your affection would make a good match for you. Falling in love is a horrifying, mystical, foreign, and bizarre experience ... because it's very rare and dangerous (being in love makes one very vulnerable to emotional injury).

As such, I postulate that one must really "fall in love" in order to connect with one's dual, and, having asked a number of people about this, it seems quite rare for people to "fall in love." That may be because it's quite rare to find someone to whom one is (a) physically attracted and (b) a good fit in terms of compatible brain wiring.
 

ZNP-TBA

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All the same, duality relationships do seem to offer the best chance that people have to form lasting, loving, and well-functioning relationships.

Why?


[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION] you explained falling in love but not why a duality relationship offers the best chance for success.

I'm open minded and I'm really trying to figure out how an ISFp, in theory, could compliment my type. I find that type, in general, rather boring and I'm sure they find us equally undesirable. I agree with the physical chemistry but that usually settles down after 4 to 6 months and what you're mainly left with is the person and their personality. In fact one of the only types I've had pretty much zero chemistry with was ISFp (even though there was physical attraction as soon as we started talking communication was a bit difficult). Is it possible socionics has a poor duality theory?
 

Kheledon

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Why?


[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION] you explained falling in love but not why a duality relationship offers the best chance for success.

I'm open minded and I'm really trying to figure out how an ISFp, in theory, could compliment my type. I find that type, in general, rather boring and I'm sure they find us equally undesirable. I agree with the physical chemistry but that usually settles down after 4 to 6 months and what you're mainly left with is the person and their personality. In fact one of the only types I've had pretty much zero chemistry with was ISFp (even though there was physical attraction as soon as we started talking communication was a bit difficult). Is it possible socionics has a poor duality theory?

There's no doubt that debate continues in Socionics theory regarding the likelihood and value of duality, but the statistics don't lie. Just look at the chart in the OP, and you'll see that a statistically significant number of lasting, loving relationships are duality relationships. The link under the graph in the OP also shows that a whopping 64% of lasting, loving relationships are among members of the same quadrant, and that over 60% of those same-quadrant relationships are duality relationships.

Data here: http://socionic.info/pdf/couples.pdf
 

ZNP-TBA

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There's no doubt that debate continues in Socionics theory regarding the likelihood and value of duality, but the statistics don't lie. Just look at the chart in the OP, and you'll see that a statistically significant number of lasting, loving relationships are duality relationships. The link under the graph in the OP also shows that a whopping 64% of lasting, loving relationships are among members of the same quadrant, and that over 60% of those same-quadrant relationships are duality relationships.

Data here: http://socionic.info/pdf/couples.pdf

Right, it's certainly compelling and I like how there's at least some hard data for this. What are you theories on why duality relationships tend to work out so well? I have some guesses but I'd like to hear your take.
 

Kheledon

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I was never in a romantic relationship with an ISTj... but I have had an intense platonic friendship with one for a few years.

This confirms the data shown above. EIE (you) and LSI (him) have the hardest time of all Sociotypes in terms of their "falling in love." That said, he may very well be the perfect mate for you.

Edited to add: Still--no chemistry = no "falling in love" = little or no chance of "hooking up" with one's dual. If there's no mutual attraction, there's no point in trying.

Second edit: [MENTION=26163]Protege[/MENTION] The words "intense" and "Platonic" seem contradictory to me. Perhaps you may want to be a little more assertive with this person if you are, in fact, attracted to him.
 
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Tilt

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This confirms the data shown above. EIE (you) and LSI (him) have the hardest time of all Sociotypes in terms of their "falling in love." That said, he may very well be the perfect mate for you.

That was never the purpose of this particular friendship... I was just trying to illustrate the dynamics of a close friendship between my dual and I. :)
 

geedoenfj

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Interesting, I've never been in a relationship with an ISTJ before and never known many of them properly, but I hate when someone is always referring to the "rules" I don't like when people make limitations on my behavior based on their book of "rules" and sometimes these rules are just unfair in my opinion, but the ISTJs that I know are very nice people and helpful when you get to talk to them :)
 

Kheledon

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Interesting, I've never been in a relationship with an ISTJ before and never known many of them properly, but I hate when someone is always referring to the "rules" I don't like when people make limitations on my behavior based on their book of "rules" and sometimes these rules are just unfair in my opinion, but the ISTJs that I know are very nice people and helpful when you get to talk to them :)

I respect your natural and reasonable suspicion of "rules" when it comes to the most important things that people do, i.e. romantic relationships, but I would strongly encourage you to consider Socionics (a very new and radical theory for explaining the naturally-occurring relationship patterns between people) as not a "rule" but as a statistically-significant predictor of one's best chance of finding what we all need most out of life ...

LOVE!
 
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STP's rub me wrong. ISTP's are worse. I had a relationship with one and I felt like I was that chick out of My Fair Lady, having someone hanging around that felt it was his job to criticize and scrutinize everything I said. I had to supervise one once at work. He told me I was weird and gave me advice on how to be more normal. I got him fired, not for that, but for not doing HIS job. That's what the ISTP does though, I think.

ESTP's, ime, don't perceive me and my strangeness so singularly, but look more at whatever situation I'm in and advise me on how to improve that, which I find helpful. It is really great sometimes to let an ESTP analyze my life, but it isn't all broken and everything doesn't need to be fixed. They're also condescending too.

In the end, I prefer types that share more functions with me than less. They are less tedious and laborious.
 

Cloudpatrol

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Yes. An identity relationship is one composed of two people of the exact same Sociotype (i.e. ENTp and ENTp in your case). It appears that, for all of us, it's difficult to recognize and "fall in love" with one's dual because one's dual is so very different. All the same, duality relationships do seem to offer the best chance that people have to form lasting, loving, and well-functioning relationships. That's why chemistry needs to come first. It appears that one must be attracted to (voice, appearance, smell, and all other S data) one's dual in order to be able to "fall in love," and that experience of "falling in love" is, actually, your brain telling you in the strongest possible way, that the object of your affection would make a good match for you. Falling in love is a horrifying, mystical, foreign, and bizarre experience ... because it's very rare and dangerous (being in love makes one very vulnerable to emotional injury).

As such, I postulate that one must really "fall in love" in order to connect with one's dual, and, having asked a number of people about this, it seems quite rare for people to "fall in love." That may be because it's quite rare to find someone to whom one is (a) physically attracted and (b) a good fit in terms of compatible brain wiring.

Since reading your posts when I first joined I have been keeping an eye out for my dual among the populace. I have only encountered a few so far but find that yes, it's the bolded that is the rub.

I always find your data stimulating my friend. Thanks for it.
 

Kheledon

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OK. HOLD IT, PLEASE. :blush:

I have this sense that my thread is being unintentionally de-railed. While I appreciate the contributions of all who have responded so far, and while I also enjoy discussing the concept of duality, what I really want to discuss is IDENTITY relationships. Has anyone here ever been in one and made it work? If so, how did it go?

Here are various descriptions of identity relationships:

Descriptions by various authors

Valentina Meged, Anatoly Ovcharov

These are relations between people who are very similar. They are characterized by good understanding and ease of communication. If built on trust and mutual empathy, these relations are good for friendship. In marriage, there may be difficulties due to partners' inability to help each other, since they have the same weak and strong aspects and have difficulty objectively evaluating each other's activities, goals and accomplishments. These relations are active when partners have a common interest, task, or project, where there is something to learn from a more experienced partner. Without new information these relations quickly exhaust themselves. Partners generally view each other's weaknesses with sympathy. Identical relations enable the partners to take a critical look not only at each other but also at themselves from outside.

I.D. Vaisband, publications on Socionics

Two persons of the same type understand each other very well, since information is easily transferred between them. This is great foundation for a teacher-student type of relationship. No one can teach faster and clearer than an identical. However, as soon as their knowledge is aligned, their interest in maintaining relations decreases, since they cannot say anything new to each other for now both are equally informed. Both are strong and weak in the same areas, so that they can not expect support from each other in their weak aspects, and are therefore unlikely to especially need each other. Even talking with each other can be uninteresting: what one thinks, the other voices. If they were left alone in a secluded spot, one might even say that they have forgotten how to talk. Identicals react in the same manner to the same stimuli. What is clear to one - is clear to both. What is not clear to one - is not clear to the other either. There is no complementarity. Marriage is advisable only if they want to devote their lives to some common cause, as Pierre and Marie Curie.

O.B. Slinko, "The key to heart - Socionics"

Identical partners perceive the world and exert their influence on it in very similar ways. This does not mean, however, that they are alike in everything and will always understand and agree with each other. However, one's identical seems painfully obvious: his weaknesses and problems are evident, because you have the same ones. You cannot help because you yourself are weak in the same areas. The most frequent feeling which arises in relation to your identical is that of sympathy. Much is forgiven to an identical; his actions are justified as one's own. At times, however, such a partner becomes boring and uninteresting: you feel that you can reach the same conclusions on your own. Situation changes for the better when one partner in an identical pair is superior in experience and development to the other, which happens in parent-child, teacher-student, supervisor-worker relationships. In this case, the transfer of information happens quickly and in a very straightforward manner, and the difference in knowledge levels is rapidly bridged. Identical is the best student and best teacher. This is why in a dual family children are often of identical types to their parents.

R.K. Sedih, "Informational psychoanalysis"

This interaction leads to an interesting effect. The mask that every person wears for functioning in a society is almost transparent to your identical. This has both positive and negative consequences. Deep understanding of one's partner allows for quick and productive learning from his experience. On the other hand, it is difficult to communicate with a partner who is able to see right through you. This is especially of concern to non-dualized individuals who may have lot of problems and little desire to display them. Situation is particularly heavy if in addition the partners find themselves in a situation where they have to conflict and compete. Their internal squabbles are at a risk of becoming apparent to everyone. Very fortunate is the child who has one identical and one dual parent. Children from such families are usually ahead of their peers in their health and psychological development. Identical relations are most appropriate for a parent-child, teacher-student arrangement, as well as for friendships of medium level of comfort. Teacher-student relations often pass onto friendship, as the student quickly catches up with teacher. However, such friendships are unstable, because to help one's identical one must "detach" from oneself and own problems. High-speed of learning also has its disadvantages; the student may at some point challenge the authority of the teacher. This is the cause of human progress and, at the same time, of many personal tragedies, however, only for those who were looking for a monument to their own merits. A person with many students who is not averse to their opinion has a chance to move forward faster than anyone.

Laima Stankevichyute "Intertype relations"

First love is often one's dual or identical. Two persons of the same type are very well aware of each other. Their behavior and activities often bear very noticeable similarities. They even speak using the same kind of verbal constructions. Identicals are often clear to each other and share some values. Collaboration is usually successful, but marriage can be difficult. First of all, because where there is lack of information, there is lack on both sides. In addition, in close communication, instructions and wishes seem to be offensive and ill-timed. Families consisting of two identical types often break down.

A.V. Bukalov, G. Boiko, "Why Saddam Hussein made a mistake, or what is Socionics"

These relations are interesting because if you look at the other person it is as if you're looking at yourself from the outside. For people who know Socionics, in the type stereotypes become especially evident in these relations. Identicals understand where the other is coming from. The motives that guide the other person are clear, which helps to correct own behavior. The protective mechanisms of the psyche are also visible, which is a kind of mask worn by people in presence of others. These relationships are best when there is a need to transfer accumulated knowledge and experience, for example, while studying, because the student understands the teacher perfectly well, and the teacher can easily see needs of the student. This is especially noticeable when subtypes match. Different subtypes take somewhat longer to understand each other: to the Si-SEI it will seem that Fe-SEI is overly active and disturbs the "emotional space" too much; to the Ne-ILE it seems like Ti-ILE is overly cautious, even limited, caught up analyzing narrow problems. Identicals look at the world with the same eyes, so after the transfer of the experience has been completed, they have nothing more to say to each other and relations grow cold. One exception to this is cases when they have to work on a common goal or objective.

V.V. Gulenko "Criteria of reciprocity"

Monotonous debate

Communication is productive only at different levels of knowledge. In this case, an interesting discussion starts up. When identicals are on equal intellectual levels, debate becomes protracted and quickly gets tiring. With some pleasure you try to break the monotony of these relations by encouraging your partner to take actions that are uncharacteristic for his temperament. There is usually good understanding but no deep interest in each other. If you do not disturb the balance artificially, you will not avoid subsequent clash of interests.

Binary signs of intertype relations

Partners intuitively understand each other's motives and oppose any attempt to normalize their behavior, to subordinate their freedom to any restrictions, however fair. Identical pair is extremely democratic and violates all frameworks and traditions.

Identity relations quickly manifest their cold nature. Identical types easily calculate the logic of each other's behavior and therefore quickly lose mutual interest. They show a tendency towards intellectualization - the importance of cognitive interests and intellectual discussions.

Identical pair combines similar outlook on life, often adopts the same side on issues, shares in hobbies and interests. Plans that identical partners create together are colorful and promising, but have little chance to get implemented as they intended.

Identical relations quickly grow boring and monotonous due to similarity of temperament and understandable ways of the partner. Basic human passions rarely change throughout life. And if such changes occur, their causes and meaning, are easily understood. It becomes more difficult to dispel the dullness of these relations.

Identical partners are so much alike in their preferences, that as a couple they adapt to each other even more. This similarity is initially attracts. They strive to achieve even greater understanding and in pursuit of this process will eventually lose the outcome. Their socionics aspects are summed up and the contribution of each thus becomes indistinguishable.

Advice on getting along

These relations require constant influx of new varied information that can be discussed. During the discussion, there is a tendency to engage in intellectual debates, trying to prove one's intellectual superiority. Therefore, try to go out more often, socialize, visit the theater, museums, parks, or simply even take walks in populated places.

Divide household responsibilities and don't stress anyone's priority. Keep in mind that identical relations will never provide what partners expect of out of them, so be prepared for disappointments and adjustments to plans to make them more realistic. The less pleasant side of these relations is that there is an ongoing uncertainty with regard to one's partner. As soon as such doubts arise, set aside your emotions and rationally try to figure out what's wrong. Without understanding of the general pattern of partner's behavior, an explanation of the particulars briefly stabilizes these relations. Don't let arrogance take over these relations. Try to communicate democratically, with a sense of humor.

V.V. Gulenko, A.V. Molodtsev, "Introduction to socionics"

These is a lot of understanding between identical partners, but also an inability to truly help one another. Seeing this, identical partners are likely to develop a sense of sympathy for each other. You want to support or justify your partner in any way, since you feel that in this situation you would have done the same. On the other hand, communication quickly gets boring. Not receiving new information from the partner, you see the futility of such relations. Uninformative partner seems boring and dull. Over time, relations become either neutral or cool. This is not surprising, because after the exchange of information it is not interesting to keep up a conversation, knowing well in advance that you could reach the same conclusions. One exception to this is if there is very large difference in the experience or knowledge. Then there may be great interest and attraction towards each other. Such relationships are ideal for teacher-student type of interaction. Collaboration in this case is also effective, as it adds two forces in same direction. Communication between overlapping subtypes is much more pleasant and easy. With mismatched subtypes partners perceive each other with some suspicion; it seems that the other person is somehow misdirected. Identical relations are of great educational value, because they allow a person to look at himself or herself more objectively and evaluate own strengths and weaknesses. And taking a look at ourselves is not always pleasant. Even own voice recorded on tape seems not so much worse than one thought. These relationships help to develop proper self-estimation.

Socionics - the16types.info - Identical Relations

Beuler? Beuler? :D:D
 

Cloudpatrol

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OK. HOLD IT, PLEASE. :blush:

I have this sense that my thread is being unintentionally de-railed. While I appreciate the contributions of all who have responded so far, and while I also enjoy discussing the concept of duality, what I really want to discuss is IDENTITY relationships. Has anyone here ever been in one and made it work? If so, how did it go?

Beuler? Beuler? :D:D

Perhaps due to how rare they are?

I'm interested too! Eagerly await relevant responses :popc1:
 

SearchingforPeace

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I get along great with all NFJs. There seems to be great commonality. But I tend to get along with most types.

I never had a romantic relationship with a ENFJ. I do know a female ENFJ currently giving up on any other relationship partners except ENFJs..... having failed with so many other types.......
 

geedoenfj

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I respect your natural and reasonable suspicion of "rules" when it comes to the most important things that people do, i.e. romantic relationships, but I would strongly encourage you to consider Socionics (a very new and radical theory for explaining the naturally-occurring relationship patterns between people) as not a "rule" but as a statistically-significant predictor of one's best chance of finding what we all need most out of life ...

LOVE!

No no no I didn't mean the article, I was implying to the ISTJs' usual constant reference to the rules which is a part if their nature that I don't like, I think the article is interesting though
 

Tilt

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Edited to add: Still--no chemistry = no "falling in love" = little or no chance of "hooking up" with one's dual. If there's no mutual attraction, there's no point in trying.

Second edit: [MENTION=26163]Protege[/MENTION] The words "intense" and "Platonic" seem contradictory to me. Perhaps you may want to be a little more assertive with this person if you are, in fact, attracted to him.

Why is it contradictory?
 

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Ok, back to topic. I never dated an NTp but the curiosity is killing me.

*summons [MENTION=26046]Dyslexxie[/MENTION]*

 

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I have no issues with identity relationships. I did read up on where the pitfalls are and i disagree and/or could careless about that. They say we are only good until we reach the same level and then get bored...as if its a tatic picture that we dont learn outside of our partner. Or we ave had the same life and therefore have the same judgement. Just becauuse i am Ti and some one else is Ti we have different bodies, knowledge, experience, likes, dislikes, etc that we wont always agree on everything or come to the same conclusion. We just go about life in a similiar fashion. Just because i may agree it makes sense doesnt mean i will do the same thing or come to the same action.
 

Tilt

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I get along great with all NFJs. There seems to be great commonality. But I tend to get along with most types.

I never had a romantic relationship with a ENFJ. I do know a female ENFJ currently giving up on any other relationship partners except ENFJs..... having failed with so many other types.......

One of my absolute favorite people is an ENFJ male. The friendship is very rewarding... and probably one of the most intense mental/emotional connections I have ever had with another person. I could see the potential draw.
 
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