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Identity Relationships (ever been in one? what was it like?)

Galaxy Gazer

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I dated an INTp once. We got along really well and never fought or anything, but it never went anywhere. We were both too awkward to make any sort of move. Eventually I started falling for an INTj I met online (that was a f*cking giant mistake) so I told the INTp I just wanted to be friends, and he agreed that it was best. Now (3 years later) he won't talk to me, and he seems sort of bitter toward me. I figured he wasn't really into it, but I'm afraid I might have hurt him after all.
 

Kheledon

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The only types I've been in romantic relationships with : SEE, LSI, IEI.

SEE was the most fullfilling while LSI was the most long-lasting, but it was actaully over from the beginning since she decided to lie...

I still haven't been able to identify someone I am certain is an LSI. Strange that deceit (coming from the LSI) destroyed the relationship as LSI is usually known to be pretty straigtforward and honest (as a j, the LSI wants to address conflict). On the other hand, it's not shocking that your relationship with the LSI was the longest you have had. LSI is also known for being very loyal (Beta values).

Thanks for the response. :hi:
 

Kheledon

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I dated an INTp once. We got along really well and never fought or anything, but it never went anywhere. We were both too awkward to make any sort of move. Eventually I started falling for an INTj I met online (that was a f*cking giant mistake) so I told the INTp I just wanted to be friends, and he agreed that it was best. Now (3 years later) he won't talk to me, and he seems sort of bitter toward me. I figured he wasn't really into it, but I'm afraid I might have hurt him after all.

A. Augusta postulated that a relationship between a j and a p was unlikely to be successful because conflict is inevitable in relationships, and people need to prefer the same strategy for dealing with conflict in order to make their relationship work. While the p wants to avoid it, the j wants to address it, and the j will get really frustrated (to the point of breaking off the relationship) if the p continues to avoid, ignore, and elude the attempts of the j to address conflict (inability to address conflict will destroy a j's peace of mind).

As for your INTp (if that person is typed correctly), you're probably right about having wounded him, but it's ENFj, actually, that's known for never looking back and wanting nothing to do with any person who, in the past, wounded or betrayed the ENFj. Speaking for myself, I never wanted to remain friends with former lovers (all of whom betrayed me--not the other way around).

I can't speak for INTp on that. :shrug:
 

Kheledon

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Someone on another forum had posted some study or other about how empirically, there's not really any difference between inter-quadra relationships descriptions and just plain intra-Quadra ones. Just throwing that out there, because most of the ITR (as well as just plain TIM ones) descriptions are written in ways that any relationship could fit into them. Kinda like the whole "cold reading" thing.

This could be a result of the introverts mis-typing. Presumably, in Beta, for example, the rational Betas, EIE and LSI, make a good couple as do the irrational Betas, SLE and IEI. As I have posted elsewhere, A. Augusta felt that the j/p axis was essential in terms of creating and maintaining a lasting, loving relationship.
 

Jeremy8419

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This could be a result of the introverts mis-typing. Presumably, in Beta, for example, the rational Betas, EIE and LSI, make a good couple as do the irrational Betas, SLE and IEI. As I have posted elsewhere, A. Augusta felt that the j/p axis was essential in terms of creating and maintaining a lasting, loving relationship.

No, it's the result of splitting a singular objective reality of "human cognition" into subjective categories via typology. 16 ITR's can just as easily be split into 32, or recombined into 4, further recombined into 2, and further recombined into 1. Also, don't forget, Augusta failed at her relationships and typed herself as someone who didn't understand them in the least.
 

Kheledon

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No, it's the result of splitting a singular objective reality of "human cognition" into subjective categories via typology. 16 ITR's can just as easily be split into 32, or recombined into 4, further recombined into 2, and further recombined into 1. Also, don't forget, Augusta failed at her relationships and typed herself as someone who didn't understand them in the least.

The fact that A. Augusta couldn't make her relationship work was the very reason she switched from studying economics (in which she earned a Ph.D.) to psychology (in which she also earned a Ph.D.). She typed herself as an ENTp (typical mad-scientist genius Alpha--a natural debater, thinker, and expert intuitive problem-solver), but also really hard to get along with in the context of a relationship. My two ENTp friends both struggle tremendously in their interpersonal relationships. They can be quite obnoxious. Even though I enjoy their company a great deal, I still wouldn't want to be married to either of them.

Socionics describes so much about the nature of human relationships that I can't help but feel that Augusta was spot on. I concede that a system of 32 types (or even 64, for that matter) might produce even more precise descriptions, but the 16 described by Socionics are plenty for me to work with, and I have learned a great deal (about myself and others) as a result of my admittedly brief study of Socionics.
 

Jeremy8419

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The fact that A. Augusta couldn't make her relationship work was the very reason she switched from studying economics (in which she earned a Ph.D.) to psychology (in which she also earned a Ph.D.). She typed herself as an ENTp (typical mad-scientist genius Alpha--a natural debater, thinker, and expert intuitive problem-solver), but also really hard to get along with in the context of a relationship. My two ENTp friends both struggle tremendously in their interpersonal relationships. They can be quite obnoxious. Even though I enjoy their company a great deal, I still wouldn't want to be married to either of them.

Socionics describes so much about the nature of human relationships that I can't help but feel that Augusta was spot on. I concede that a system of 32 types (or even 64, for that matter) might produce even more precise descriptions, but the 16 described by Socionics are plenty for me to work with, and I have learned a great deal (about myself and others) as a result of my admittedly brief study of Socionics.

Keep in mind, it's casual deterministic. It's not meant to be used to determine the existence of relationships, but rather to to put words behind viewpoints of those which already exist. If you manage to reconcile them all back into a single type, there's still one more dichotomy left needed to be understood, and it's at the heart of it all.
 

Kheledon

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Keep in mind, it's casual deterministic.
That would make sense. According to Gulenko, ENTp's cognitive style is causal deterministic, and if A. Augusta was an ENTp, as she described herself, it would be perfectly natural for her to create a causal deterministic system for describing personalities and the ways in which they are likely to interact with one another.

Gulenko Cognitive Styles(wiki) - Wikisocion

If you manage to reconcile them all back into a single type, there's still one more dichotomy left needed to be understood, and it's at the heart of it all.
You have me very curious here, and I fear that I'm not following you on this. Which single yet essential dichotomy is "at the heart of it all" and needs to be understood as you prescribe?

:shrug:
 

Jeremy8419

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That would make sense. According to Gulenko, ENTp's cognitive style is causal deterministic, and if A. Augusta was an ENTp, as she described herself, it would be perfectly natural for her to create a causal deterministic system for describing personalities and the ways in which they are likely to interact with one another.

Gulenko Cognitive Styles(wiki) - Wikisocion
It only describes what already is, not what may or could come to be.


You have me very curious here, and I fear that I'm not following you on this. Which single yet essential dichotomy is "at the heart of it all" and needs to be understood as you prescribe?

:shrug:

The obvious one that's missing from typology.
 

Kheledon

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It only describes what already is, not what may or could come to be.
Well, precisely. It's dialectical-algorithmic thinking that typically sees the world as dynamic and in constant flux, but we're talking about human biology and brain wiring, here. It takes thousands if not millions of years of evolution to change that, doesn't it?

The obvious one that's missing from typology.
Forgive me for being dense, but I am not sure I know which dichotomy is "obviously" missing.

:shrug:
 

Jeremy8419

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Well, precisely. It's dialectical-algorithmic thinking that typically sees the world as dynamic and in constant flux, but we're talking about human biology and brain wiring, here. It takes thousands if not millions of years of evolution to change that, doesn't it?


Forgive me for being dense, but I am not sure I know which dichotomy is "obviously" missing.

:shrug:

Male/Female and all their innate differences.
 

Kheledon

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Male/Female and all their innate differences.
Actually, there are several Socionics theorists who are exploring the effects of gender on personality and a good number of them have different "profiles" of what a given type may look like when "playing" a given gender role. Here, for example:

Socionics - the16types.info - Dostoyevsky, Female portrait, INFj by Beskova
Socionics - the16types.info - Dostoyevsky, Male portrait, INFj by Beskova

The problem, these days, is that it's difficult to understand gender as a simple dichotomy because gender is now explosive in our society. One of my children tells me she is a demi-sexual pan-romantic. Hard to make that fit into the standard male/female dichotomy. That said, there's no doubt that gender roles affect one's outward appearance to the world as well as one's sense of identity.
 

Jeremy8419

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Actually, there are several Socionics theorists who are exploring the effects of gender on personality and a good number of them have different "profiles" of what a given type may look like when "playing" a given gender role. Here, for example:

Socionics - the16types.info - Dostoyevsky, Female portrait, INFj by Beskova
Socionics - the16types.info - Dostoyevsky, Male portrait, INFj by Beskova
No need. I've already read everything available in English, as well as all primary sources of Russian.

You're speaking of the concept of gender in the context that it is distinct from sex. I am speaking of sex, and the fundamental differences in brain functioning.

Socionics models a concept of information processing and various forms of information transfer between types of information metabolism, known as intertype relationships.

What it does not do, however, is recognize the fundamental differences in information metabolism between the sexes. What you have referenced are articles under the premise that a male and a female may process information in a way that is fundamentally the same; they are articles which ignore the dichotomy of male/female.

When we take the dual pair of EIE, denoted as 1, and LSI, denoted as -1, and apply the male/female dichotomy, denoted as 1 and -1, we are left with an inherent contradiction:

1 (male) * -1 (LSI) * -1 (female) * 1 (EIE) = 1 (positive match)
-1 (female) * -1 (LSI) * -1 (female) * 1 (EIE) = -1 (negative match)

Such, the information metabolism between two "duals" of opposing sex may only be equivalent between two "duals" of the same sex, if the fundamental information metabolism of one of the females is the opposite of the assumed type.

The problem, these days, is that it's difficult to understand gender as a dichotomy because gender is now explosive in our society. One of my children tells me she is a demi-sexual pan-romantic. Hard to make that fit into the standard male/female dichotomy. That said, there's no doubt that gender roles affect one's outward appearance to the world as well as one's sense of identity.

Typology is sex independent in a world dependent upon sex. It appeals predominantly to those who do not know or care about the differences between the sexes as a result.

Within Socionics itself, superstitions based upon the essence of people and their relationships is a primary indicator of being ST.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I have not been with someone who was like me. For a while I was attracted to the clearest thinking, most intelligent person in my environment, and that is how I chose my first two husbands. I think it is because I am by nature clear thinking, I score high on logic and analytical testing, but my environment subjected me to a whole lotta crazy. I found the differences were a problem because they couldn't connect emotionally or physically to me. The thinking part was successful, though.

I had a more traditional 'identity relationship' in a way with my third partner because we were a really cute hippie couple that was going to make music albums of all sorts together. I was mostly fixated on our own little world, but socially every woman was hyper aware of my partner and they all thought of us as a couple. No one would see me as an individual anymore, but that's because a lot of women had a crush on him. Made me a bit irrelevant socially.

I hope and believe I have a sense of my next partner. It is an interesting pairing because internally we are quite similar, but in terms of external perceptions, we are almost perfect opposites. Socially he has a gifted sense of maneuvering and I have precious little at all, so there is that difference. I think it would be good for our own little private world to be based on simpatico, but interfacing with the outside world providing contrast. There is a way that my social presence could be advantageous to him as well.
 

Luminous

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No, I haven't. Someone I loved once may have been the same type as me, but we weren't ever together. I think I may have fallen for him because he was.
 

Indigo Rodent

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I don't feel well about the idea of being with another ENFP or with an INFP. I feel like my type is way too specialised for this.
 
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