The PoLR Thread

[infinite]

The last time this happened to me was at a job interview. They had some vacant positions, but they were looking for the right person. In situations like that, you have to sell yourself, sometimes with the knowledge that even though you could perform, you're only one out of a number of available options. So you're not necessarily needed. If my goals are meant to be entirely self-serving, then things sort of fall into disarray in my mind. Ends aren't met. Does that clarify things?

Yes that does.

Well just one thing, how exactly does a self-serving goal make your mind get into disarray? Mind elaborating on how and why this happens?

It's funny because [MENTION=11928]Vetani[/MENTION] is Fi polr while I'm Ti polr (ExTp vs ExFp) and often, a lot of what is considered simple to one of us has to be thoroughly explained to the other. But it definitely provides a sense of grasping that vulnerable function from being with someone that values it. I can't think of anything specific, so maybe he can chime in.

Well if you can think of something specific, I'd like to hear about it.

 

[Stansmith]

It's funny because [MENTION=11928]Vetani[/MENTION] is Fi polr while I'm Ti polr (ExTp vs ExFp) and often, a lot of what is considered simple to one of us has to be thoroughly explained to the other. But it definitely provides a sense of grasping that vulnerable function from being with someone that values it. I can't think of anything specific, so maybe he can chime in.

Oh, interesting..I kind of assumed he was EIE-Fe based on his posting style.

 

[Ginkgo]

Yes that does.

Well just one thing, how exactly does a self-serving goal make your mind get into disarray? Mind elaborating on how and why this happens?

Without external approval, the reason for performing becomes uncertain, at best.

Side note: I'm starting to wonder if my PoLR description heavily bleeds into my impression of my Te.

 

[infinite]

Without external approval, the reason for performing becomes uncertain, at best.

Side note: I'm starting to wonder if my PoLR description heavily bleeds into my impression of my Te.

Yeah I don't see this being specifically Se-related

 

[HongDou]

Well if you can think of something specific, I'd like to hear about it.

I opened up Skype and Ctrl+F'd "polr." Take them how you will, here are some random bits I found.

[7/31/2013 11:17:55 PM] Lava Luke: #FiPoLR
[7/31/2013 11:18:17 PM] Lava Luke: "inability to gauge personal relationships" - me

[11/11/2013 3:20:45 AM] Chandler: which involves tending to your own emotions more and letting down your guard
[11/11/2013 3:21:04 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: letting down my guard?
[11/11/2013 3:21:11 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: tending to my own emotions?
[11/11/2013 3:21:15 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I don't see the link
[11/11/2013 3:21:24 AM] Chandler: i mean, from what the hugging thing said
[11/11/2013 3:21:25 AM] Chandler: 8d
[11/11/2013 3:21:26 AM] Chandler: LOL
[11/11/2013 3:21:33 AM] Chandler: but i think tending to your emotions as in like
[11/11/2013 3:21:47 AM] Chandler: instead of worrying about other people and trying to adapt for their sake
[11/11/2013 3:22:28 AM] Chandler: be more upfront about how you feel so that your emotions are the ones that are being tended to
[11/11/2013 3:22:58 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I want to do it diplomatically
[11/11/2013 3:23:05 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I don't know
[11/11/2013 3:23:06 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: adsfasdf
[11/11/2013 3:23:44 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I FEEL
[11/11/2013 3:24:03 AM] Chandler: 8d
[11/11/2013 3:24:06 AM] Chandler: Fi polr?
[11/11/2013 3:24:09 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: yes

[12/3/2013 3:35:23 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I don't really trust Elfboy's assessments
[12/3/2013 3:35:36 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: they lack consistency
[12/3/2013 3:35:43 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: he's so textbook Ti polr

[3/11/2014 10:19:39 PM] Chandler: i dont know why i tagged the straight dude post as him though
[3/11/2014 10:19:45 PM] Chandler: sometimes i forget he likes guys too though
[3/11/2014 10:19:55 PM] Chandler: he just seems so...typical straight dude
[3/11/2014 10:19:57 PM] Crusader Nassera: because you are Ti polr

[4/9/2014 11:45:44 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: narcissism go
[4/9/2014 11:45:52 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: i might just be a covert narcissist
[4/9/2014 11:46:08 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: because i make people underestimate me then I blow them away or something like that
[4/9/2014 11:46:33 PM] Chandler: everyone is a little narcissistic in some ways
[4/9/2014 11:47:12 PM] Chandler: meaning, we all have our own gains for being with people and our own self-interests
[4/9/2014 11:47:35 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: i like that
[4/9/2014 11:48:38 PM] Chandler: but the line is drawn whether you're actually exploiting relationships for those interests or you're gaining what you need from having an actual fulfilling relationship
[4/9/2014 11:49:12 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: I like that even more
[4/9/2014 11:49:41 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: you know you're the first Fi ego that doesn't irritate me
[4/9/2014 11:49:57 PM] Chandler:
[4/9/2014 11:50:06 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: and the first I've learned something from
[4/9/2014 11:50:11 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: that sir, is golden
[4/9/2014 11:50:19 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: I've never thought about it until you said it
[4/9/2014 11:50:23 PM] Hærpinä Derpindottir: #polr

 

[infinite]

Oh, interesting..I kind of assumed he was EIE-Fe based on his posting style.

You know, I don't get this about certain Beta stereotypes, they all sound so all-over-the-place Fe. How much do SLEs and LSIs do that sort of thing honestly? I don't relate at all - most of the time - but I'm not Fe ego, so... I'm not saying I specifically dislike it or anything but I don't do it much myself.

 

[LittleV]

Se PoLR

I definitely harbor insecurities with my Se. The impending feeling that I'm not measuring up to my potential, or that I can't grasp opportunities, frequently burdens my mind. I envy successful risk-takers. When I attempt to take initiative, it leaves me feeling drained and hollow, even though not everyone can see it. When the outcome leaves something to be desired, gambling like this is reduced to a complete waste until I collect myself and glean whatever wisdom of hindsight I can from my failures. I probably project onto everyone a slight feeling that they expect me to aim higher or to serve them. When I interact with those who don't hold those expectations, I can become slightly disoriented, which makes the process of making myself appealing almost invariably abysmal.

When I'd first had the pursuit to actively tap into Se (it was late in high school after being surrounded by it; I had no formal knowledge of cognitive functions whatsoever)... I'd decreased my tendency to acknowledge symbols/patterns as to prevent operative synthesis/analysis as my primary mode... and focused on attending to most everything in my path (seizing moments) while staying in rather-constant activity. I did this for about a year... before integrating everything I'd passively noted. Even though Se is your PoLR function, maybe this could give you a better understanding of what the function entails - such that it might burden you less. And perhaps increasing your Te-usage would be additionally valuable for you as an EII (as Se-usage was for me).

-----

To answer the question (I have Te-PoLR): Te can be imposing on me when I might try to achieve something, or look like I am/not. With Fe as my own, consciously-valued extraverted judging function, I also have my own goals that I want to carry out... and would rather get objective feedback on ethics than logic. At the same rate... having an ESTj sister and many Te-users at my workplace - I had to learn how to get used to (and/or survive) some of my least-preferred way of doing things.

 

[infinite]

I opened up Skype and Ctrl+F'd "polr." Take them how you will, here are some random bits I found.

Thx

[11/11/2013 3:20:45 AM] Chandler: which involves tending to your own emotions more and letting down your guard
[11/11/2013 3:21:04 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: letting down my guard?
[11/11/2013 3:21:11 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: tending to my own emotions?
[11/11/2013 3:21:15 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I don't see the link
[11/11/2013 3:21:24 AM] Chandler: i mean, from what the hugging thing said
[11/11/2013 3:21:25 AM] Chandler: 8d
[11/11/2013 3:21:26 AM] Chandler: LOL
[11/11/2013 3:21:33 AM] Chandler: but i think tending to your emotions as in like
[11/11/2013 3:21:47 AM] Chandler: instead of worrying about other people and trying to adapt for their sake
[11/11/2013 3:22:28 AM] Chandler: be more upfront about how you feel so that your emotions are the ones that are being tended to
[11/11/2013 3:22:58 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I want to do it diplomatically
[11/11/2013 3:23:05 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I don't know
[11/11/2013 3:23:06 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: adsfasdf
[11/11/2013 3:23:44 AM] Vita-Binder Vetani: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I FEEL

Um... for me it's simpler. I usually just don't feel anything. It's not that I don't know what I feel. Simply there is nothing to know about.

When I do feel something I never try to give it a name or figure out what it means, I just sort of act it out, express it in whatever way I can.

So I don't relate to this if this is Fi-PoLR. Not sure what that was about being diplomatic either :S

[MENTION=11928]Vetani[/MENTION] Tell me more?

 

[infinite]

When I'd first had the pursuit to actively tap into Se (it was late in high school after being surrounded by it; I had no formal knowledge of cognitive functions whatsoever)... I'd decreased my tendency to acknowledge symbols/patterns as to prevent operative synthesis/analysis as my primary mode... and focused on attending to most everything in my path (seizing moments) while staying in rather-constant activity. I did this for about a year... before integrating everything I'd passively noted. Even though Se is your PoLR function, maybe this could give you a better understanding of what the function entails - such that it might burden you less. And perhaps increasing your Te-usage would be additionally valuable for you as an EII (as Se-usage was for me).

Lol late high school, that's when I tried to engage superid more too, I think.

I don't see myself playing that much with either Ne or Fi, though. (One of those being my PoLR) As side effects at most...

 

[Ginkgo]

When I'd first had the pursuit to actively tap into Se (it was late in high school after being surrounded by it; I had no formal knowledge of cognitive functions whatsoever)... I'd decreased my tendency to acknowledge symbols/patterns as to prevent operative synthesis/analysis as my primary mode... and focused on attending to most everything in my path (seizing moments) while staying in rather-constant activity. I did this for about a year... before integrating everything I'd passively noted. Even though Se is your PoLR function, maybe this could give you a better understanding of what the function entails - such that it might burden you less. And perhaps increasing your Te-usage would be additionally valuable for you as an EII.

-----

To answer the question (I have Te-PoLR): Te can be imposing on me when I might try to achieve something, or look like I am/not. With Fe as my own, consciously-valued extraverted judging function, I also have my own goals... and would rather get objective feedback on ethics than logic. At the same rate... having an ESTj sister and many Te-users at my workplace - I had to learn how to get used to (and/or survive) some of my least-preferred way of doing things.

I've had extended periods like the year you mentioned, and now I recognize how Se ties in. I never considered the possibility that I integrated certain contents until I read your post, but it's more than plausible. I'll give this some more thought. Thanks.

 

[Kierva]

Thx

Um... for me it's simpler. I usually just don't feel anything. It's not that I don't know what I feel. Simply there is nothing to know about.

When I do feel something I never try to give it a name or figure out what it means, I just sort of act it out, express it in whatever way I can.

So I don't relate to this if this is Fi-PoLR. Not sure what that was about being diplomatic either :S

[MENTION=11928]Vetani[/MENTION] Tell me more?

If you force me to think about what I feel about something, I will not know what I feel as a result of not feeling anything. There's also the societal expectation of being obligated to feel something when bad things happen.

Like when my grandmother passed away last year, and she was in her final moments, my mother made me stroke her forehead and say the things coming out of her mouth. I refused and I looked at my grandmother with blank eyes from a distance. I just couldn't say or do what my mother wanted me to do because I just don't feel anything.

The result of not knowing what I feel is because of that expectation, of having to feel something when you really don't. Puts you in a dilemma -- makes you wonder if you're a monster or what.

 

[WorldSocionics]

Like [MENTION=18664]Stansmith[/MENTION], I'm torn between two options. I chose ESI over EII because that's what the "socionics experts" typed me as, so I'll go with Ne PoLR first (though [MENTION=5759]edchidna1000[/MENTION] typed me EII.)

Ne PoLR
I also find relativism taken too far deeply irritating, especially when applied to ethics. My IEE stepdad, who is not only more tolerant of ethical differences (well, the idea of ethical differences, anyway) but even actively seeks them out in people, and I, have locked horns on this issue many times. I think there are at least some objective standards to judge behavior and feel annoyed when people try to shirk or reject personal responsibility for their actions.

Second, I'm resistant to change and newness. My first reaction, when presented a new idea or thought (especially one that's overly outlandish or playful) is to react with suspicion and disdain. Conversations that turn too speculative or move too far away from the original point confuse me. (This is an example of a thread I find confusing and annoying.)

I hate brainstorming. I'm content to sit in and listen and identify ideas of worth (sometimes) but I'm not so good at generating them. Being given a brick and told to come up with 25 different uses for it would be calculated to make me freeze on the spot (and I would also think it's stupid.)

Umm, what else. IEEs make me feel like I'm not quick enough on my feet or that I'm too rigid and harsh in my standards or too crude and unrefined (though that's more rare). I've also reacted poorly when people on here (particularly [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION]) accused me of being too pessimistic and dismissive of people and their possible trajectories of growth (when I felt like I was just being realistic and responding to the scenario as it was.)

Se PoLR:
I react poorly to people who try to force me to do things without an explanation. My will is my own and I resent it when people try to control that. My instinctive urge is to push back and refuse to cooperate. I also would rather that people would take initiative and do things on their own without me having to push them constantly. I also think people should be kinder to each other and not resort so readily to violence.

SEEs sometimes make me feel like a boring stick in the mud.

---

I know I can't have both, so I'm just kind of ignoring this all for a while until a clear answer jumps out at me.

Well, looking at this I'd say ESI.

An ESI won't just submit to Se for no reason. Their Fi demands to know whether the reason for the control is good or not. At the same time, they will do a good job at resisting coercion rather than overreacting or breaking under it.

 

[infinite]

If you force me to think about what I feel about something, I will not know what I feel as a result of not feeling anything. There's also the societal expectation of being obligated to feel something when bad things happen.

Like when my grandmother passed away last year, and she was in her final moments, my mother made me stroke her forehead and say the things coming out of her mouth. I refused and I looked at my grandmother with blank eyes from a distance. I just couldn't say or do what my mother wanted me to do because I just don't feel anything.

The result of not knowing what I feel is because of that expectation, of having to feel something when you really don't. Puts you in a dilemma -- makes you wonder if you're a monster or what.

Hmm I see. You know, I relate to the extent that I don't feel anything either but... I don't give a fuck about those societal expectations. I would also not have done what your mother asked you to do. I never wondered if this made me a "monster". I'm actually quite comfortable being this way. Anyone who thinks it's bad can just fuck off.

No, I don't say the above to others in such situations, I know it would be offensive. I just manage by simply keeping a blank face and not doing anything or leaving entirely, or perhaps, at best, giving a faint expression of what's expected, some facial expression, e.g. a quick superficial smile. Even then I still don't say anything about personal/inner feelings and I don't express them by action either. It did happen before that I offended others by this kind of behaviour - if I completely didn't attempt to align with expectations -, yes but I didn't give a shit.

When I'm just asked about how I personally feel about something, that's simple too, I'll just say "dunno" or shrug or smile or something like that. I don't bother to put in the effort because I know there's nothing. Even if sometimes there happened to be something that I "feel" about whatever thing, it would be something pretty confusing, not an actual emotion either, really just something confusing and so I just ignore it. I would also not be comfortable talking about it anyway.

So when you say you don't know what you feel because there's this expectation... I'm rather fine with admitting to myself that I don't feel anything. Thus, I exactly know what I feel: nothing. Guess that's why I didn't relate to your original description of this issue. Now, I do relate a lot more to what you actually meant.

PS: Now I don't know if that's Fi Role or PoLR because I can give a similar description about my attitude to Ne.

 

[Kierva]

Hmm I see. You know, I relate to the extent that I don't feel anything either but... I don't give a fuck about those societal expectations. I would also not have done what your mother asked you to do. I never wondered if this made me a "monster". I'm actually quite comfortable being this way. Anyone who thinks it's bad can just fuck off.

No, I don't say the above to others in such situations, I know it would be offensive. I just manage by simply keeping a blank face and not doing anything or leaving entirely, or perhaps, at best, giving a faint expression of what's expected, some facial expression, e.g. a quick superficial smile. Even then I still don't say anything about personal/inner feelings and I don't express them by action either. It did happen before that I offended others by this kind of behaviour - if I completely didn't attempt to align with expectations -, yes but I didn't give a shit.

When I'm just asked about how I feel about something, that's simple too, I'll just say "dunno" or shrug or smile or something like that. I don't bother to put in the effort because I know there's nothing. Even if sometimes there happened to be something that I "feel" about whatever thing, it would be something pretty confusing, not an actual emotion either, really just something confusing and so I just ignore it.

So when you say you don't know what you feel because there's this expectation... I'm rather fine with admitting to myself that I don't feel anything. Thus, I exactly know what I feel: nothing. Guess that's why I didn't relate to your original description of this issue. Now, I do relate a lot more to what you actually meant.

PS: Now I don't know if that's Fi Role or PoLR because I can give a similar description about my attitude to Ne.

/shrugs/ maybe it's something to do with being an image type vs a gut type.

 

[infinite]

/shrugs/ maybe it's something to do with being an image type vs a gut type.

That's a thought too. What's your enneagram?

 

[Kierva]

That's a thought too. What's your enneagram?

3w4 sx/so

 

[yeghor]

What would be a global difference for you, then?

Yes it's difficult to make direct correlations because of that, though logical comparison is still possible in some ways.

I see that the thread moved away to different topics but still...

Let's say MBTI(Functionx) = Orange and Socionics(Functionx)=Tangerine... That would not be a global difference... Had the latter been=Apple, pear, banana etc. for instance, that would be a global\major difference...

EII is aristocrat dichotomy too in socionics

What do you base that on?

What did you personally mean by that though?

I meant the description (and the avatar therein) refers to INFp as some kind of spendthrift...bourgeois would be a better word perhaps...

That thread you linked to is pretty long... I think if you're interested in figuring out this IEI vs EII issue for you, you should really make a socionics typing thread in the typing forum section. I'm sure people will try to help.

INFJs already have Ti in their stack infinity- ...

Where's the thread owner though? Summoning [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]...

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]

The aristocratic dichotomy is based on one of the Reinen Dichotomies called Democratic/Aristocratic.

Typical characteristics

Aristocrats

• Inclined to perceive and refer to other people, and themselves, by means of groupings and categories that they see these people belonging to; these groupings may be created and defined by the Aristocrats themselves, rather than be already existing and socially defined ones.
• Their initial attitude towards another person is influenced by their attitude towards the grouping they see this person belonging to.
• Tend to attribute common qualities to members of same groupings, and define such groupings by these same qualities.
• Inclined to refer to others using expressions that mention generalized features of their groupings.

Democrats

• Perceive and refer to other people, and themselves, primarily describing individual, personal qualities: frank, trustworthy, generous, unimaginative, lighthearted, good-looking, etc. which are generally not in connection to any grouping to which they might belong.
• Form their relationships and attitudes toward other persons based on their own individual characteristics, rather than taking into account which grouping these persons fall into or their own relationships with the members of these circles and groupings.
• Not inclined to perceive people as representatives of a certain grouping that supposedly possesses qualities inherent to people who comprise it.
• When referring to others, not inclined to use expressions that mention the generalized features of the grouping or categories that these people belong to.

from Wikisocion

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]

The aristocratic dichotomy is based on one of the Reinen Dichotomies called Democratic/Aristocratic.

This rather feels like a dichotomy between Republicans and Democrats rather than Aristocrats...perhaps the author was wary of drawing wrath of Republicans?

Edit: Given that he was Russian, that wouldn't hold water though...

What he was going after may be the dichotomy between "collectivism and individualism" though... I side more with collectivism to be honest but I am not on the extreme end... I'll read more into it...

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

My own PoLR dilemma:

Fe PoLR:
1. I don't watch what I say whatsoever, and get surprised when people get offended by what I say. I usually respond with "How on earth could that have possibly been offensive?" in all seriousness, driving the person to become even more offended.
2. (This could easily be NTR) I cuss like a sailor everywhere I go, and I have to consciously exert effort to control it in front of people, and it is impossible for me to understand how the simple saying of a cuss word could possibly offend someone if it is being used indirectly. It makes no god damn sense and it pisses me off.
3. I never think about the repercussions events will have on other's emotional well-being, except when they directly tell me that this will hurt their feelings, in which case I still respond "Why?".

Si PoLR:
1. No sense of aesthetics whatsoever.
2. Hygiene related tasks have to be made with a conscious effort, I absolutely abhor it when people make a comment about my body, but can never seem to fix it (super-ego definite?).
3. No sense of style, I just wear things that are comfortable or even useful.