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Socionics is BAD

Mal12345

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Typing by face, known as Visual Identification, is not actually part of mainstream 'Classical' Socionics. It is mostly upheld by Sergei Ganin on his offshoot site, unfortunately named www.socionics.com.

Socionics improves on MBTI in numerous areas, it's more comprehensive, includes values as well as strengths and weaknesses, has theories on inter-type compatibility, YES solves that whole IxxJ IxxP issue etc. It just has a lot of crazy people with crazy theories that people confuse with Socionics proper. There's one person who tries to type you based on what colours you like.

Without these setbacks, Socionics would have become a lot more well known in the West than it has so far.

What IxxJ IxxP issue? Why would anybody have a problem with this? Oh yes, JCF is the problem with this...
 
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What IxxJ IxxP issue? Why would anybody have a problem with this? Oh yes, JCF is the problem with this...

Well that's just it, the problem of MBTI is that if poorly fuses with JCF in the cases of introverts and if it doesn't fuse with JCF it's just Keirsey types, a lesser version of Big 5.

It's odd to say that an INTJ leads with an Irrational function Ni and argue that auxiliary Te is what makes it a J when that Te is auxiliary. Socionics makes sure that the leading function determines both Extroversion/Introversion AND Judging/Perceiving.
 

Mal12345

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Well that's just it, the problem of MBTI is that if poorly fuses with JCF in the cases of introverts and if it doesn't fuse with JCF it's just Keirsey types, a lesser version of Big 5.

It's odd to say that an INTJ leads with an Irrational function Ni and argue that auxiliary Te is what makes it a J when that Te is auxiliary. Socionics makes sure that the leading function determines both Extroversion/Introversion AND Judging/Perceiving.

There is no problem, once they stop allowing E/I and J/P to be determined by the functions.
 
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There is no problem, once they stop allowing E/I and J/P to be determined by the functions.

The functions are what makes MBTI Jungian. If you sever the link to Jung's cognitive functions, you end up with the Keirsey types which are essentially a less empirically validated version of Global 5. The dichotomies themselves don't really stand without the functions as if you go deeper into it, they themselves are derived from how functions work. Without functions, you have to judge how extroverted someone is by how chatty they are, how F or T by how emotional they are, counting up the tallies etc. It gets reduced from type to a set of scales.

If you would like to get a better understanding of Socionics, I invite you to take a look at my articles:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...s-part-1-jungian-dichotomies-im-elements.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...duction-socionics-part-2-functions-model.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...nics-part-3-quadras-inter-type-relations.html
^^ On another note, I'm starting to think I might have put these articles in the wrong sub-forum. How do I alleviate this?
 

valaki

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That's the sucky part about it. LSI, LII, LSD, all that confusing nomenclature pretty much repels me from getting into this.

It's not that bad, just need to get used to it. :)


My last question has been buried under troll waste. No matter, I'll just repeat it. [MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION] "Which type [like Darwin] thinks about ideas abstractly, and builds a brand new paradigm out of evidence based on experiment and observation?"

Any type.
 

valaki

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Again starting to read this long thread :)

(...) This effectively eliminates all descriptive content from the labels P and J which traditionally mean perceiving and judging as well as a slew of other things. For some, Se has even been limited to merely "looking." Such confusion has arisen from this function talk that even an intellectual such as Carl Jung is considered by some - an ISTP, as if he were some motorcycle mechanic or something. (...)

Se == looking, that's not in socionics, right? Or what did you mean by that?

As for ISTP's not ever being intellectuals, that's just a stereotype, right?
 
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Stansmith

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Socionics strikes me as being a bit too focused on inflexible archetypes/patterns of behavior for my taste. MBTI seems to allow for more individual quirks that don't necessarily have to do with one's type, or at least that's the vibe I get when comparing the two communities.
 

valaki

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Do you know any ISTPs who can write even remotely like Carl Jung. And even if any CAN, do they WANT to do it for a living?

http://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/istp/

"ISTPs have an adventuresome spirit. They are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing, etc. They thrive on action, and are usually fearless. ISTPs are fiercely independent, needing to have the space to make their own decisions about their next step. They do not believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit their ability to 'do their own thing'."
- Portrait of an ISTP (The Personality Page)

"Like their fellow SPs, ISTPs are fundamentally Performers, but as Ts their areas of interest tend to be mechanical rather than artistic like those of ISFPs, and unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity."

Do these quotes even remotely describe Carl Jung? Now you see why I like to describe them archetypically as "motorcycle mechanics." Yes that is somewhat in joke, but not entirely.

Does typology have ANY meaning in reality? Is it so vague and therefore flexible that anybody can be any type?

ISTP archetype != every ISTP out there. Yes, I can imagine Jung as being TiNi. That in MBTI is most closely related to ISTP being a Ti dom and not using Ne, but it will not be the stereotypical ISTP as Se is weak.

I find that there's many people online who are identifying most strongly with NiTi or TiNi with weak Fe/Se. I don't know the reason for this phenomenon. :p


Which type thinks about ideas abstractly, and builds a brand new paradigm out of evidence based on experiment and observation?

As I said before, any type but I want to add, because I see now why the topic came up: Darwin didn't build completely new ideas. He took some already existing ideas and of course also used his observations to put together a new theory. A rudimentary one that has been changed since then. But yes, it was a big achievement, I just wouldn't claim only INTx can do this. Though it also seems to me that almost nobody really has any completely new ideas anyway. (But, this is a long topic and off topic here)


Some ISTP's deal with inner-images and revelationary periods as well. This excerpt doesn't prove detachment.
I mostly stayed in the house for two solid years because I was so overcome by images and revelations..... lol..... Yes, I know how being swamped feels.
Many introverts go through similar experiences, so I don't see how this could build a case for a type.

I went through this for a few weeks during a period of my life and I'm pretty sure I'm no INTx.

But wow, two years, that's a lot. Why did you get into that in the first place?
 
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ISTP archetype != every ISTP out there. Yes, I can imagine Jung as being TiNi. That in MBTI is most closely related to ISTP being a Ti dom and not using Ne, but it will not be the stereotypical ISTP as Se is weak.

I find that there's many people online who are identifying most strongly with NiTi or TiNi with weak Fe/Se. I don't know the reason for this phenomenon. :p




As I said before, any type but I want to add, because I see now why the topic came up: Darwin didn't build completely new ideas. He took some already existing ideas and of course also used his observations to put together a new theory. A rudimentary one that has been changed since then. But yes, it was a big achievement, I just wouldn't claim only INTx can do this. Though it also seems to me that almost nobody really has any completely new ideas anyway. (But, this is a long topic and off topic here)




I went through this for a few weeks during a period of my life and I'm pretty sure I'm no INTx.

But wow, two years, that's a lot. Why did you get into that in the first place?


I'd say that Jung is a an LII-INTj in Socionics. Because we mention all 8 IM elements, he can lead with Ti but still have strong Ni. He just won't value it. He's very much an Intuitive type though, very much in the abstract world and nowhere near as volitional as an LSI-ISTj.
 

valaki

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I'd say that Jung is a an LII-INTj in Socionics. Because we mention all 8 IM elements, he can lead with Ti but still have strong Ni. He just won't value it. He's very much an Intuitive type though, very much in the abstract world and nowhere near as volitional as an LSI-ISTj.

This is actually one example where Socionics almost makes more sense than MBTI ;p

Almost, um, because those NiTi and TiNi people often seem to think they value both these functions in Socionics. LII clearly wouldn't. It's either some confusion about the meaning of what a valued function is or Socionics fails to model these people accurately enough
 
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This is actually one example where Socionics almost makes more sense than MBTI ;p

Almost, um, because those NiTi and TiNi people often seem to think they value both these functions in Socionics. LII clearly wouldn't. It's either some confusion about the meaning of what a valued function is or Socionics fails to model these people accurately enough

Basically, when Ni is that strong, you're going to see a lot of it in a person. For instance, I use a lot of Te but I don't value it in the slightest. I don't use it for its own sake. However, if it isn't valued, that person will not deliberately focus on Ni for its own sake, instead abusing it to serve Ti. Indeed Jung did things for the sake of Ti... attempting to classify and clarify things to a theoretical order. If you look at ILIs they actually use strong Ti to take apart systems and cast doubt on theory.

If you look at quotes he made, you'll see this clear Ti focus:

Carl Jung - "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order."
 

valaki

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Basically, when Ni is that strong, you're going to see a lot of it in a person. For instance, I use a lot of Te but I don't value it in the slightest. I don't use it for its own sake. However, if it isn't valued, that person will not deliberately focus on Ni for its own sake, instead abusing it to serve Ti. Indeed Jung did things for the sake of Ti... attempting to classify and clarify things to a theoretical order. If you look at ILIs they actually use strong Ti to take apart systems and cast doubt on theory.

If you look at quotes he made, you'll see this clear Ti focus:

Carl Jung - "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order."

Ah, well, I see what you mean. Btw I relate to ILI's use of Ti here :eek: At least on the surface :) Because I like to do that stuff with taking apart ideas a lot to criticize them. But I enjoyed some of Jung's writings because I liked the way he was writing about his theory. Can't say if that was the Ni or the Ti that I liked :) I also really like the quote that you quoted from him here. His more esoteric stuff I wasn't really willing to read, though. Would you still classify those as Ti?

It would be interesting to see if those NiTi/TiNi people can all relate to abusing one of these two for the purposes of the other.
 
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Ah, well, I see what you mean. Btw I relate to ILI's use of Ti here :eek: At least on the surface :) Because I like to do that stuff with taking apart ideas a lot to criticize them. But I enjoyed some of Jung's writings because I liked the way he was writing about his theory. Can't say if that was the Ni or the Ti that I liked :) I also really like the quote that you quoted from him here. His more esoteric stuff I wasn't really willing to read, though. Would you still classify those as Ti?

It would be interesting to see if those NiTi/TiNi people can all relate to abusing one of these two for the purposes of the other.


Jung's main approach to things was Ti. When it comes to Ni, it's not necessarily about being esoteric so much as understanding the flow of events from the past through to the future. I think Jung's main purpose was to classify to categorise something very very abstract.

It would be interesting!
 

valaki

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Jung's main approach to things was Ti. When it comes to Ni, it's not necessarily about being esoteric so much as understanding the flow of events from the past through to the future. I think Jung's main purpose was to classify to categorise something very very abstract.

I see. So, I'll say this, I didn't read those more esoteric books of his, but if you did, can you tell me if he's still doing this sort of categorising in them?


It would be interesting!

Well, how about you go around, find some of these people and test them. :p

Btw that PhD you talked about, when are you going to get there?
 

empertet

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This is merely conjecture but from what I gather you can only tell what a person is used to feeling via lines that form on the face a time passes. It may be fair to say that Introverts (Or NF's)tend to have hooded lids due to excessive daydreaming/thinking. but beyond that I can't really say what emotions certain types are prone to, which makes the theory... fluffy, at best. :|
 
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I see. So, I'll say this, I didn't read those more esoteric books of his, but if you did, can you tell me if he's still doing this sort of categorising in them?

I haven't read up on the archetypes properly.

Btw that PhD you talked about, when are you going to get there?

Not for a few years.
 

Tiltyred

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They don't type by face, do they? I thought it was more by how a person USES his face -- facial expressions.
 
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