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Sell me on Socionics

whateverr

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Why isn't Pe gathering collective facts/concepts, and Pi gathering facts/concepts viewed by the self? It makes no sense to stick "organising" on Pi if Pe was "gathering" (i.e. perceiving), with Je and Ji there is consistency that they are both about values/reasons (i.e. judging) with E being collective oriented and I being self-oriented.
And now I'll add what I thought. Tough competitiveness (and especially social status oriented competitiveness) is Te in mbti but Se in socionics? How the fuck does that work?
About the 1st paragraph of the quote, it could be a way. But it would still be, instead of a more "mindless gathering" approach, it's more directed to how it makes sense with your subjectiveness. Kinda like the same thing in different words. But i rather use organizing in the nomenclature because it is portrays a more clear distinction between the two in my pov.
Se= Fire exists
Si= Fire burns me

E is gathering the sensory, I organizes it. Perception is not simply a "taking in the world" activity, may i add. Is also about putting what you take in into perspective.

About the second paragraph, i would advise not to correlate functions with adjectives. I find it is a common way to shoot yourself in the foot. "Competitiveness" could happen for a bunch of reasons. Don't associate it with functions. Otherwise, the next time you see a competitive guy, you will put him in a box, instead of trying to figure out why he would do such a thing. Maybe he is competitive because he hates the idea of being undervalued. That's Fe. Maybe he hates the idea of his actions not being as functions as he thought they would be (Ti). Maybe there is a secret and unconscious social status undertone to the Ti competitive. That would actually be, Ti dom with inf Fe behavior, IxTP. Look for the why in the action, not the action it self. Anyone can do anything in any situation. Yet they chose to do this. Why did they choose to act the way they did? That's where the money is. What drives them to act, instead of what the action was by itself.
Be careful with that.
 

Meowcat

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About the 1st paragraph of the quote, it could be a way. But it would still be, instead of a more "mindless gathering" approach, it's more directed to how it makes sense with your subjectiveness. Kinda like the same thing in different words. But i rather use organizing in the nomenclature because it is portrays a more clear distinction between the two in my pov.
Se= Fire exists
Si= Fire burns me

E is gathering the sensory, I organizes it. Perception is not simply a "taking in the world" activity, may i add. Is also about putting what you take in into perspective.

As for your last couple sentences I agree yeah, but organisation makes me think of intentional ordering and direction that only J functions are supposed to have so hardly just a perspective seen in a perception. Perception to me seems pretty much "mindless gathering", because it does not have a direction. (You can tell how I am all about direction, lol)


About the second paragraph, i would advise not to correlate functions with adjectives. I find it is a common way to shoot yourself in the foot. "Competitiveness" could happen for a bunch of reasons. Don't associate it with functions. Otherwise, the next time you see a competitive guy, you will put him in a box, instead of trying to figure out why he would do such a thing. Maybe he is competitive because he hates the idea of being undervalued. That's Fe. Maybe he hates the idea of his actions not being as functions as he thought they would be (Ti). Maybe there is a secret and unconscious social status undertone to the Ti competitive. That would actually be, Ti dom with inf Fe behavior, IxTP. Look for the why in the action, not the action it self. Anyone can do anything in any situation. Yet they chose to do this. Why did they choose to act the way they did? That's where the money is. What drives them to act, instead of what the action was by itself.
Be careful with that.

If you notice, I emphasised the motivation: social status. This in MBTI is said to be Te, but Se in Socionics.
 

Mind Maverick

ENTP 8w7 845 Sp/Sx
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And now I'll add what I thought. Tough competitiveness (and especially social status oriented competitiveness) is Te in mbti but Se in socionics? How the fuck does that work?
Aushra Augustinavichute decided to create the coalescence of Carl Jung's work and Information Metabolism Theory by Antoni Kempinski. Unlike this system, the MBTI does not include Information Metabolism Theory, it's just Jung and then all the things Myers' and Briggs' did with Jung's work. The end result? A system that is different, but similar enough to trick everybody who doesn't read enough about it to realize it. There are some similarities, but they are still rather different on a literally foundational level. Socionics deals with information exchange between someone (something). Socionics has blocks.

Socionics Si is also about things like comfort, but Se in Socionics is about things like force. They are designed to be opposites of each other within the same system instead of being designed to be an exact replica of a completely separate system, so them being different than MBTI cognitive functions is not bizarre.

See more differences here:
Model of the Type of Information Metabolism (TIM) | School of System Socionics

If you want my opinion though, this shit doesn't make sense from the very start. Why did someone bother to waste their time combining two theories that are unsupported by scientific evidence when either one, or both, may be entirely false or even just partially false and send the entire system crumbling down? Shouldn't they have solidified the foundations they were building on first? What, now you have to try to hope to just somehow get lucky and have both of them AND your new pretzel theory proven? Or was it all just intended to be one big nerd fest to pass the time anyway? As for MBTI...why did people decide to make incomplete work easily accessible by the public? Issues within the typology community are explained.
 

Meowcat

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Aushra Augustinavichute decided to create the coalescence of Carl Jung's work and Information Metabolism Theory by Antoni Kempinski. Unlike this system, the MBTI does not include Information Metabolism Theory, it's just Jung and then all the things Myers' and Briggs' did with Jung's work. The end result? A system that is different, but similar enough to trick everybody who doesn't read enough about it to realize it. There are some similarities, but they are still rather different on a literally foundational level. Socionics deals with information exchange between someone (something). Socionics has blocks.

Socionics Si is also about things like comfort, but Se in Socionics is about things like force. They are designed to be opposites of each other within the same system instead of being designed to be an exact replica of a completely separate system, so them being different than MBTI cognitive functions is not bizarre.

See more differences here:
Model of the Type of Information Metabolism (TIM) | School of System Socionics

If you want my opinion though, this shit doesn't make sense from the very start. Why did someone bother to waste their time combining two theories that are unsupported by scientific evidence when either one, or both, may be entirely false or even just partially false and send the entire system crumbling down? Shouldn't they have solidified the foundations they were building on first? What, now you have to try to hope to just somehow get lucky and have both of them AND your new pretzel theory proven? Or was it all just intended to be one big nerd fest to pass the time anyway? As for MBTI...why did people decide to make incomplete work easily accessible by the public? Issues within the typology community are explained.

Thanks for the reply/input. I figure they picked the parts of the two systems that made sense to them, so it's not necessarily like just taking the two systems as is, but creating a new one and it can be better just fine. But I'm not saying Socionics is better than Jung or Kempinski, I'm just saying that technically this is also a possibility. I don't really see how they would be supposed to solidify Jung's system or the other system: it would already be a new system at that point. And likely that was their goal with building the Socionics system.

But yeah, it seems like navel gazing beyond a point. My original question was about how it doesn't make sense to me to take one thing (competitiveness of a type/motivation) and completely re-label it in another system. Makes it look like the reasoning behind is completely arbitrary. And not just solidifying or fixing an existing system. Even if that may have been the original goal. ...

I didn't understand your last sentence, sorry. Any typo there, or?
 

Mind Maverick

ENTP 8w7 845 Sp/Sx
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Messages
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Thanks for the reply/input. I figure they picked the parts of the two systems that made sense to them, so it's not necessarily like just taking the two systems as is, but creating a new one and it can be better just fine. But I'm not saying Socionics is better than Jung or Kemfpinski, I'm just saying that technically this is also a possibility. I don't really see how they would be supposed to solidify Jung's system or the other system: it would already be a new system at that point. And likely that was their goal with building the Socionics system.

But yeah, it seems like navel gazing beyond a point. My original question was about how it doesn't make sense to me to take one thing (competitiveness of a type/motivation) and completely re-label it in another system. Makes it look like the reasoning behind is completely arbitrary. And not just solidifying or fixing an existing system. Even if that may have been the original goal. ...

I didn't understand your last sentence, sorry. Any typo there, or?
Hmm, I wasn't saying it'd solidify Jung's system, quite opposite...building a new system out of a system that isn't solid gives you a new system that is just as lacking in solidity. As for "socionics being a new system..." it's really not though, lol. It's close enough for the originals to have to be true in order for Socionics to be true. If someone disproved one of those guys' work it'd make the Socionics system crumble apart.

Personally, I don't like Socionics. I see it as too restricting. Like why are those the only PoLRs? What if mine isn't any of the ones on the list? What if I don't relate to any of the information metabolism elements as they are in the 1st position of the ego block and I only start relating to any of them at position 3, in the Super-ego block, which is lower dimensional? What if I relate more to something like Si in position 1 and Ti in position 2, both of which would be in the Ego Block, and I can't relate well to my options to have both of those as 4D/high-dimensional in the system because I relate less to both Ne and Fe than those two?

bUt ThaT'S aGAiNsT tHe sOcIOniCs SyStEm's rUUuLeS bECaUsE--
The division of information metabolism into two phases is loosely based on the analysis of the orienting response. Information metabolism is initiated by the perception of a change in the internal or external environment of the organism. In the first phase, the organism seeks to obtain direct information about the perceived phenomenon. Because of that, it must turn its attention 'outside' to the reality. The perceived phenomenon is then subconsciously evaluated.
Yes. Exactly though. It's against the rules...and why shouldn't it be? What evidence suggests that there is an extroverted IE and an introverted IE (Information Metabolism Element--those things most people call "functions") in the Ego Block? Why can't someone have two introverted IEs or two extroverted IEs other than bECaUsE sOcIOniCs sAYs sO? What science supports this nomothetic theory? Oh, right...nothing, because it's only derived from yet more psychological theories that are unsupported by empirical data. My views on this are probably only unpopular because people find it fun to dig around and play with the puzzle so they'd like to believe they have a type.
 

Mind Maverick

ENTP 8w7 845 Sp/Sx
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I didn't understand your last sentence, sorry. Any typo there, or?
No, I just didn't fully write out my thoughts and said things in a way that required dots to be connected between the two last sentences.

Issues within the typology community are explained by the fact that people decided to make incomplete work easily accessible by the public. That's why everyone is arguing about definitions and other information within the nomothetic theories. The Big 5 is backed up the most, but nobody ever even uses it.
 

Meowcat

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Hmm, I wasn't saying it'd solidify Jung's system, quite opposite...building a new system out of a system that isn't solid gives you a new system that is just as lacking in solidity.

Yeah I wasn't saying you were saying that. But where I was said something different from you is that the new system can be more solid, depending of course. I'm not saying Socionics is more solid, just that in general it is entirely possible. Since the new system is reorganised compared to the old and has new elements, and all that can be more solid. It's not like just copypasting the old system(s).


As for "socionics being a new system..." it's really not though, lol. It's close enough for the originals to have to be true in order for Socionics to be true. If someone disproved one of those guys' work it'd make the Socionics system crumble apart.

Tbh I see Socionics as having gone so far from the original that I don't see them as closely connected any more beyond a point.

But as far as they are still connected - If some things in the originals are refuted that Socionics did not copy "as is", but enough fundamentals are not disproven, then Socionics can still be true (technically - if you go on with my post you can see I'm not claiming that Socionics must be true whatsoever, as it is really not proven as it is now), but if those fundamentals that Socionics took out of these theories are disproven, then yes Socionics will be disproven too.


Personally, I don't like Socionics. I see it as too restricting. Like why are those the only PoLRs? What if mine isn't any of the ones on the list? What if I don't relate to any of the information metabolism elements as they are in the 1st position of the ego block and I only start relating to any of them at position 3, in the Super-ego block, which is lower dimensional? What if I relate more to something like Si in position 1 and Ti in position 2, both of which would be in the Ego Block, and I can't relate well to my options to have both of those as 4D/high-dimensional in the system because I relate less to both Ne and Fe than those two?

I do think it's a big rabbithole at first sight. I know that's disregarding OP, heh sorry to OP.


bUt ThaT'S aGAiNsT tHe sOcIOniCs SyStEm's rUUuLeS bECaUsE--

Yes. Exactly though. It's against the rules...and why shouldn't it be? What evidence suggests that there is an extroverted IE and an introverted IE (Information Metabolism Element--those things most people call "functions") in the Ego Block? Why can't someone have two introverted IEs or two extroverted IEs other than bECaUsE sOcIOniCs sAYs sO? What science supports this nomothetic theory? Oh, right...nothing, because it's only derived from yet more psychological theories that are unsupported by empirical data. My views on this are probably only unpopular because people find it fun to dig around and play with the puzzle so they'd like to believe they have a type.

Afaik Ego block is the ego block not simply because the ego IEs or functions or whatever are strong but because the processing of them is also conscious and not just its results.

This wasn't part of Jung, or Kempinski, otoh it is hard to prove as it is now. It's not delineated properly, the above idea. So, it's a theory where you can explain anything with any reasoning - unfalsifiable.



No, I just didn't fully write out my thoughts and said things in a way that required dots to be connected between the two last sentences.

Issues within the typology community are explained by the fact that people decided to make incomplete work easily accessible by the public. That's why everyone is arguing about definitions and other information within the nomothetic theories. The Big 5 is backed up the most, but nobody ever even uses it.

Ah gotcha. As for incompleteness...A scientific theory is never complete. I think the issues here are explained by how the theories become unfalsifiable rabbitholes if you go too deep in them. The function dichotomies (the "letters") correlate with Big 5 pretty neatly though.

... But then Socionics takes that, and changes the related reasoning completely even for such fundamentals. (Hence my original issue I brought up in the thread)
 

Merced

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Reviving this thread too while I'm at it.

I view MBTI and Enneagram as self improvement tools, how could Socionics be used in a fashion that can't be done through its counterparts?
 

chickpea

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socionics seems like something i would love, and i have tried so hard to get into it for many years and it just never sticks. i still don't really understand why the functions are different and don't translate between systems, despite being inspired by the same source material and called the same thing.

the filatova portraits are fantastic though
5024efb08cde07549631b8c18a6d51ae.png
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I can’t get into it. Something about it is “thin” to me; vague definitions and fake technobabble under a veneer of science.

It doesn’t help that the online communities just feel like glorified dating sites.


Enneagram and big 5 all the way
 

Tilt

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Socionics can be a bit fanatical... obsessed with the idea of "duality as the ideal match". It's quite interesting to observe. Ex. ENFj-Ni goes best with ISTj-Se, which loosely translates to ENFJ and ISTP. LOL, it's a mixed bag...I would much rather end up with an INTP.

And the vast majority of the socionics community tends to believe that MBTI is just for simpletons.... it's highly amusing. A different perspective to ponder but some people really take it too seriously as if it were legit science. :fpalm:
 

infinityaurora

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MBTI is poorly constructed and doesn't describe people as well as Socionics.

In MBTI an introverted perceiver's primary function is somehow a judging function, which makes zero sense.

I have observed things about people that were truly as Socionics described them; the way they think/relate to the world matches the cognitive functions. I cannot say the same about MBTI.

It's annoying if the only reason someone doesn't like Socionics is because it's "too complicated". It's not too complicated because at its core it is about 8 cognitive functions, simple as that. Everything else is stuff that people further made up or observed and can be taken with a grain of salt, even if you adhere to the cognitive function model.

And no, that duality doesn't translate to ENFJ-ISTP, it translates to ENFJ-ISTJ, which is perfectly realistic. You shouldn't use the cognitive functions when translating because a) they aren't similar between the two theories, and b) MBTI cognitive functions make no sense to begin with.
 
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The pros:

- It gets more in-depth than MBTI (in regards to how the functions are laid out, they are based on Aushra's definitions of IME).
- You can have subtypes (but a lot of people question their validity and at times I do too).
- There are things called ITR, which are meant to describe and explain how each type interacts with each other, based on Math and their relations to one another (again, this seems to be a bit iffy when it's transferred to RL relations and should be taken with a pinch of salt).
- There are more descriptions/portraits for the types on Wikisocion for each type that people seem to agree on to an extent. There appears to be a wider variety of what makes up types through observations on there than there is in MBTI (though, not too sure of their overall accuracy).

The cons:
- There appears to be quite a bit of disagreement over the definitive definitions of the definitions and what people experience/self-report of them and define them. It's not a concrete, definite agreement on what constitutes X function, but there is again a general idea.
- Everyone wants to make their own system that isn't Model A, or Model G. A lot of things can tend to get lost in translation at times, and people want to redefine the whole system and what they know of it and make their own variations of A/G and it can get messy at times.
- It still has elitism, bias, and stereotypes, but that's expected in a hierarchical personality system.

All in all, if you're interested in expanding your horizons go for Socionics. If you wanna learn more, I recommend: Wikisocion, SHS (Gulenko's School), 16Types Articles can be useful too, and so can the Wikipedia Socionics page for context. Actually, here's an extensive list of resources I found too: Socionics Resource Links
 

Pionart

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I'm now almost certain that Ni pairs energetically with Ne, not Se, so socionics is discredited in my eyes.

Can't have a working use of socionics if the intertype relations are backwards.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I think people in socionics communities get way too obsessed with finding their dual, as though it equates to finding a soulmate. The community reeks of desperate and confused twenty somethings.

I'm not sure dual relations are the most ideal. For instance, an INTP with an ENxJ or INxJ seems a better fit than an INTP with an ESFJ. I'm married to an INFJ, and it's a pretty great fit. She finds men who are most likely her dual to be boring and predictable. I find ESxJ women to be either overly domineering (I wouldn't want to date my dad) or too hung up on fitting in with the crowd--the types of women who felt like I needed to be "fixed" or adapt to their idea of a social life--my wife found me attractive for who I was, rather than telling me to keep the star trek talk to a minimum or making me wear american eagle clothes out to a friend's house party. She finds most people predictable. She can usually read someone within 20 minutes of meeting them. She said she could never read me like that, and I remain an enigma, so I suppose we remain together until I become boring. Would not want to be married to my socionics dual.
 
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Mind Maverick

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The Socionics community is not the Socionics system. They are disparate. Personally, I strongly prefer Socionics, and it is the primary system I type in at this point. I personally believe that different people match different systems better than others. Some might find MBTI fits, others Enneagram, others Socionics. Funny, since I used to trash Socionics, but it is actually the system that suits me the most.

I was never able to consider IxFP in MBTI, partly due to the way MBTI depicts us in some weird ways. In general, my informed opinion is that MBTI doesn't do S types justice in the descriptions. Si and Se both are clearer and make much more sense in Socionics. Se relates to willpower, force, and exerting it over the external objects; Si relates to comfort, attunement to physical health, aesthetics, etc. They're opposites in the sense that Se is challenge oriented rather than comfort oriented. You never hear about ISFP in MBTI being blunt as hell, trying to be objective (using Ti role function rather than "inferior Te"), being confrontational about things when it conflicts with their Fi.

You also never really hear Fi described as relationship related, closing the distance, etc. Also just being raw and real. The Socionics system definitions are the most solid/consistent of any system out there. MBTI is all over the place. You never hear that MBTI's ISFP ignores emotional atmospheres and gives no fucks about disturbing them in a blunt way when necessary. You never hear about them being challenge oriented, both challenging themselves and others. You never hear them described as heavily introspective and self-improvement seeking, with their seeking challenges partly applying to that self-improvement.

All of that is ESI, though. Once I got into Socionics...it all clicked. Fi, Ti, Fe (emotional atmosphere) Ignoring that I used to think was Inferior Fe in MBTI, Te seeking explaining why I put up with so much shit just to be in an informative/educational environment at times in the past, everything. It just clicked and suited me. Ne PoLR was a blind spot I learned to recognize through others, and over time. Socionics increased my self-awareness on that, and helped me realize I needed to open up my mind to alternatives more easily. It made sense with how I get so irritated by certain Ne related things, though.
 
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Mind Maverick

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Socionics was part of what helped me to embrace some truer aspects of myself and stop fighting them. It helped me see traits that had always been criticized and suppressed in a positive light. It helped me to embrace my neuroticism to some extent, helped me to quit trying too hard to be chill and emotionless.
It helped me set free my true self and stop trying to kill aspects of myself I was always taught to believe were bad/wrong. I learned they're not worse, not better...the left/right isn't better, it's just more of the same. There are pros and cons to all of these kinds of personality traits. It wasn't ALL Socionics, but it did contribute. The irony is that despite embracing my passionate nature, I've actually in some ways chilled out more. When you're not suppressing things you don't just eventually explode.
 
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Mind Maverick

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You never hear about ISFP in MBTI being blunt as hell, trying to be objective (using Ti role function rather than "inferior Te"), being confrontational about things when it conflicts with their Fi. You also never really hear Fi described as relationship related, closing the distance, etc. Also just being raw and real. The Socionics system definitions are the most solid/consistent of any system out there. MBTI is all over the place. You never hear that MBTI's ISFP ignores emotional atmospheres and gives no fucks about disturbing them in a blunt way when necessary. You never hear about them being challenge oriented, both challenging themselves and others. You never hear them described as heavily introspective and self-improvement seeking, with their seeking challenges partly applying to that self-improvement.
Most people probably don't think "ISFP" when they see/hear NF, but he is ESI as fuck.

 
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