User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 38

  1. #1

    Default Is the subtype system pointless?

    Does there exist any strong case for the subtypes? I like the idea but I haven't seen any compelling arguments in favor of them. I am referring to the 2 subtype system, not the DCNH subtypes.

    Actually this is a criticism I have of socionics in general. I've noticed that a lot of the hard core proponents use a kind of circular logic in their justification of socionics as more scientific than MBTI--when you ask someone to prove their assertions, they revert to theory to prove their theory. Not to say MBTI people don't do this too. I don't really care what Gulenko or some other "expert" says, since they're really just presenting a model based on their very subjective understanding. Yet people will cite Gulenko or Augusta or someone else's theory (and it's really more of an informal theory a theory in the sense of formal scientific theory that's already been run through the rigorous scientific method from the starting point of a hypothesis) to prove socionics is the real deal.

    So convince me the subtypes are real, and while you're at it, convince me socionics is not just pseudo science dressed up with a lot of nice graphs and charts to make it appear more science-y than MBTI or other typological systems.

    Not to sound condescending, I just have yet to see a good explanation. Every "expert" seems to have a drastically different explanation of socionics.
    Likes Luminous, Terralynn liked this post

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    222

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Does there exist any strong case for the subtypes?
    I don't find it to be particularly useful, but I assume it could match some personality traits better.

    ... convince me socionics is not just pseudo science dressed up with a lot of nice graphs and charts to make it appear more science-y than MBTI or other typological systems.
    Psychology itself is a pseudoscience, for lack of a better term, much like history or economy. They all rely on narrative and brittle consensus constructions. The foundation of socionics, as with any other system of Jungian typology, is the assumption that repression is real and that we are led by unconscious thoughts. Those are assumptions that may turn out to be wrong, but we can at least consider the empirical underpinnings that turn out to be predictive, behaviorally speaking.

    What we are granted with socionics, moreover, is a narrative that allows us to discuss serious topics while circumventing PC culture. The current debate climate forces us to speak in code, and socionics remains a useful tool in the sense that it allows us to speak clearly without damning ourselves in the process.

  3. #3
    Junior Member Pioneer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    845 sp/sx
    Socionics
    LIE Ni
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Psychology itself is a pseudoscience, for lack of a better term, much like history or economy.
    It is less reliable than physics or chemistry, but not necessarily less useful.

    They all rely on narrative and brittle consensus constructions.
    The result of human sciences is that they break up consensus constructs. For example, economic theories are based on observation (of human behaviors) but these observations lead people to become aware of their own behaviors and potentially alter them. An example of this would be Karl Marx's theories which described capitalists' behaviors forgetting people these same capitalists could just read his writings and alter said behaviors.* This is different from natural sciences since for example water will always boil at the same temperature, due to the nature of matter. A regularity in the world of matter will always repeat itself under the same conditions, which is why natural sciences are more reliable. The human (conscious) dimension is subject to change itself when aware of itself. If I know I'm thinking and behaving in a certain way because this is pointed out to me by an outside observation, I can begin to question my cognitive and behavioral process, and maybe alter them.

    But you are right that psychology in general is not subject to the scientific process of testing hypothesis, socionics is no exception.

    *Really, Marx made a big mistake when asserting humans are fully determined by historical forces like "class struggle". Of course, humans can become aware of where they are going once their course of action has been pointed out. Marx may have done just that - and negated his theories in the process.

  4. #4
    Member tigergreengrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    It is less reliable than physics or chemistry, but not necessarily less useful.
    Raskol said it WAS useful tho

  5. #5
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    My understanding of type is that people can use more or less of any given function, compared to what is expected from their stack. Some of this is due to environment-induced imbalances, but some is likely an inherited characteristic.
    the lone star flies alone

  6. #6
    Junior Member Pioneer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    845 sp/sx
    Socionics
    LIE Ni
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tigergreengrass View Post
    Raskol said it WAS useful tho
    I never said he didn't.

    I'm simply pointing out it is as useful as natural science for reasons he didn't list. He said it was useful for circumventing pc culture, which is different than what I said.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    -
    Socionics
    - None
    Posts
    419

    Default

    @asynartetic. You should explain more what do you mean by subtypes

  8. #8
    Member tigergreengrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    My understanding of type is that people can use more or less of any given function, compared to what is expected from their stack. Some of this is due to environment-induced imbalances, but some is likely an inherited characteristic.
    Is that why I use so much Fe?

  9. #9
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tigergreengrass View Post
    Is that why I use so much Fe?
    I don't know what type you are, or why it would be that you use a lot of both Te and Fe if you really do.

    One thing I'll mention is that enneagram type 3 sounds to me like a mix between Fe and Te.
    the lone star flies alone

  10. #10
    Member tigergreengrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I don't know what type you are, or why it would be that you use a lot of both Te and Fe if you really do.

    One thing I'll mention is that enneagram type 3 sounds to me like a mix between Fe and Te.
    I see, so could an ENFJ 3 look like an ENTJ?

Similar Threads

  1. What Exactly is the Temperament System?
    By Smilephantomhive in forum Other Personality Systems
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-08-2016, 08:05 PM
  2. What is the craziest bit of technology you have read about in SF?
    By macjoven in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-14-2009, 08:15 PM
  3. What is the point of the MBTI?
    By Dufresne in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-31-2007, 04:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO