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  1. #21
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    Well, it's just based on experience and observation. (which seems to be your experience as well)

    Like I said in one of my above posts, I don't think a "hyposthesis" in psychology can be proven because it's a "human" science and thus not subject to experimentation. So observation along the course of life is the closest we get to testing a hypothesis in psychology, since reproducing the same conditions in order to test a hypothesis would be problematic...
    I think it is possible to pretty much prove it. There does seem to be a correct answer to the question of what type a person is (though I've found that there are some complications to the question), and if people can be validly typed, then it becomes possible to determine the nature of the social chemistry empirically, even by simply doing an observational study of who tends to hang out with who, but then preferably having a way to also determine which pairings are best energetically.

    It's difficult to properly determine type, especially if you're not sure of your own type. I've had times when I thought that the socionics pairings were correct, but then I realised I had the typings wrong. I used to think I was an ISTJ, so when I noted that I knew quite a few ENFPs, I thought that that validated the socionics model, but after realising I was an INFJ instead, then the evidence for the model was reversed. Now I notice that I seem to hang out only with Feelers irl. INFJ, ENFP, ENFJ, ESFP. And I'm much better at typing people than I used to be. So I believe in the model of Feelers getting on best with other Feelers etc. rather than Fe getting on best with Ti. There seem to be communication issues with myself and INTPs, and I think it's the difference in prioritising of Thinking that is responsible for that. Of course my sample size is too small to really base conclusions on scientifically.
    the lone star flies alone

  2. #22
    Junior Member Pioneer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I think it is possible to pretty much prove it. There does seem to be a correct answer to the question of what type a person is (though I've found that there are some complications to the question), and if people can be validly typed, then it becomes possible to determine the nature of the social chemistry empirically, even by simply doing an observational study of who tends to hang out with who, but then preferably having a way to also determine which pairings are best energetically.

    It's difficult to properly determine type, especially if you're not sure of your own type. I've had times when I thought that the socionics pairings were correct, but then I realised I had the typings wrong. I used to think I was an ISTJ, so when I noted that I knew quite a few ENFPs, I thought that that validated the socionics model, but after realising I was an INFJ instead, then the evidence for the model was reversed. Now I notice that I seem to hang out only with Feelers irl. INFJ, ENFP, ENFJ, ESFP. And I'm much better at typing people than I used to be. So I believe in the model of Feelers getting on best with other Feelers etc. rather than Fe getting on best with Ti. There seem to be communication issues with myself and INTPs, and I think it's the difference in prioritising of Thinking that is responsible for that. Of course my sample size is too small to really base conclusions on scientifically.
    Isn't this logic you are using circular?

    If you find out others' types through your own self-typing, but then change your self-typing because of your relations with others, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Your typing or others'?

    For what it's worth, you do come across as an ILE to me. Intuition of possibilities backed up by a flexible theoretical logic. I know you weren't asking for it, but there you go.

  3. #23
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    If you find out others' types through your own self-typing, but then change your self-typing because of your relations with others, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Your typing or others'?
    Ah yes, you're referring to the eternal dilemma (or paradox?) in typology communities.

    I see this a lot on socionics boards, people saying things like "this person is my dual because I like them" or "you can't be X type because it doesn't fit the intertype relations with Z type" or similar circular sort of statements justifying their typings of themselves and others based on supposed intertype relations.

    Unless there were some way to prove ones' type beyond any doubt, I don't think this sort of reasoning will ever go away. It's all built on very shaky ground. Maybe I should just stick to Big 5 and alignments.
    “Some people underestimate how erotic it is to be understood.” -Mary Rakow
    “In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.” -CG Jung
    “I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.” -Baruch Spinoza
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  4. #24
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
    Isn't this logic you are using circular?

    If you find out others' types through your own self-typing, but then change your self-typing because of your relations with others, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Your typing or others'?

    For what it's worth, you do come across as an ILE to me. Intuition of possibilities backed up by a flexible theoretical logic. I know you weren't asking for it, but there you go.
    No, the logic's not circular. I didn't say that I base others' typings on my own, or that I base my own typing on that of others. There's a bit of checking with the social dynamics of type to see if typings make sense, but that can only come from already having an idea of what those dynamics are.

    No, I base my own typing from observing my thought processes in terms of cognitive functions, as well as applying methods I use for typing others, such as: identifying function order in forum posts, identifying vocal signals, overall personality assessments, vibes, reminders between people (the reminders between people indicate that two people are likely the same type, not what their type is, so it's not circular either). My self-typing is actually incredibly solid, not really up for debate.

    When looking through some of your posts, I got an impression of INFJ. I was seeing Ni-Fe and Ti-Se posts, the post quoted here being a Ti-Se post (logic followed by actuality).

    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic
    Unless there were some way to prove ones' type beyond any doubt
    I've pretty much accomplished this. It took me 7-8 years but I have basically become certain. There are the occassional doubts as to whether my reasoning was correct, but I'm able to check it again and those doubts subside.

    (the main doubt I have is as follows: people aren't purely one type or another, but rather have a primary type, as well aspects of the other types, some more than others. It's also possible to activate the cognition of a secondary type temporarily, potentially even using it a lot. So the doubt is that maybe I've gotten it so deeply in my mind that I'm an INFJ, that I've ended up using INFJ cognition so frequently that I end up being indistinguishable from an INFJ, when I'm really some other type. I don't see that as a reasonable possibility though.)
    the lone star flies alone

  5. #25
    malade Norrsken's Avatar
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    I don't know, but I like it, somehow.
    I just don't like how hyped up the type descriptions sound.
    S’io credesse che mia risposta fosse
    A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
    Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
    Ma perciocche giammai di questo fondo
    Non torno vivo alcun, s’i’odo il vero,
    Senza tema d’infamia ti rispondo

  6. #26
    Senior Member asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    people aren't purely one type or another, but rather have a primary type, as well aspects of the other types, some more than others. It's also possible to activate the cognition of a secondary type temporarily, potentially even using it a lot.
    I've speculated this might be the case, that type might be a lot more fluid and less static than is widely believed in the typology community.

    Although on the other hand an argument could be made that we have one type and this supposed fluidity is just a result of personal growth as we age and mature into more rounded individuals.
    “Some people underestimate how erotic it is to be understood.” -Mary Rakow
    “In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.” -CG Jung
    “I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.” -Baruch Spinoza

  7. #27
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    I've speculated this might be the case, that type might be a lot more fluid and less static than is widely believed in the typology community.

    Although on the other hand an argument could be made that we have one type and this supposed fluidity is just a result of personal growth as we age and mature into more rounded individuals.
    Well yeah, even if we're all purely on type each, there's still fluidity, because everyone has all 8 functions to some degree, and could use more of any given one of them than usual at any time.

    The difference is in function sequences. Can we change the order of functions, such that we start with something other than the dominant, yet such that it takes the role of the dominant? And so on.
    the lone star flies alone
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by raskol View Post
    Psychology itself is a pseudoscience, for lack of a better term, much like history or economy.
    I strongly disagree with this, judging it at least literally incorrect understanding.
    The term psychology consists of two word, Psyche and greek "logos" . Psyche loosely defined as the soul, logos, a greek word for reason.

    But I do think that some so called scientist wants to put it into scientific observations and claimed it to be their psychology which might make the subject has totally lose its original meaning.
    It may be the scientist problem anyway that they wish to develop theoretical behavioral explanation observed empirically to psychology. I guess It may have been the scientific method that scientist wants to follow may not be able to answer their problem. So, The problem should be returned to the scientist.
    They should realize that scientific method even if followed, are not able answer all questions. It may be the limitatin of the method. Science rely on getting to conclusion by observation, experimentation of observable by the five senses data, but I wonder whether have they question whether the psyche is observable? hence they would be correct, when they decided to follow the scientific method to study the psyche.
    I doubt even if scientific method is followed, they will be able to answer psychological questions. So, I question the reason behind they follow scientific method for the psyche? They should realize that it is human behavior that is observable, so they can follow their method to study human behavior.
    I suggest to change the name their science become a behavioral science; not to use the term psychology anymore for them so that they don't confuse themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by raskol View Post
    The foundation of socionics, as with any other system of Jungian typology, is the assumption that repression is real and that we are led by unconscious thoughts.
    Is that a Freudian repression that you mean? If that is so, I comment AFAIK, although Jung used to follow Freudian psychoanalysis, Jung was no longer in agreement with Freud eventually. Historically Jung left Freud to develop his own psychology. However, I don't really know which Freudian teaching that Jung completely abandon nor whether there are remaining freudian teaching that Jung still adopted. If we want to answer it, we should do some research.
    Quote Originally Posted by raskol View Post
    Those are assumptions that may turn out to be wrong,.....
    Unfortunately, you do not make clear which ones that you identify as assumptions and reason why they are wrong. I guess you may be only getting suspicious.

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