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  1. #41
    Senior Member Non_xsense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    Objectivity includes positives and negatives relative to type. This includes your own type but instead, you leapt on the opportunity to bash NTs (did you notice how my post focused on TJs, not NTs?) and elevated FPs or more generally, feelers with irrelevant data about emotions, since MBTI is silent on emotions.
    I guess your Te is very strong , Actually i'm an Intp and i was laughing of myself, I know my weakess points ( Can you tho ? ) ...again openness?.
    Really ... i actually like to analize some Infj complex emotionals systems to try understand the surface of that ( actually i get mad 'cause i really can't but maybe some day i can reach a system which can make that true [Trying to understand feelers types from the most Ti point of view]).

    Ohh well ... Sorry Ti make said things without objective context , my bad.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Non_xsense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurl3y4456 View Post
    Not sure...I test as INTP, however, I wasn't fully convinced with the result. It's quite natural for one to diverge from their true self as a function of contentedness. Yet, the self is more readily revealed through writing since more energy is expended in the process of continual diversion from one's natural inclinations.
    For sure man , Theory doesn't make humans ... Humans create the theory ( Similar to music theory , Did you know that bach broke more rules than 99% of the music of what you listen to the radio).

    I really get this detachment from "one way" to look things , philosophical themes ,ect. from you which is probabily the most Intp'ish way to see the world .
    I know my amazing Intj father and he never said concepts using that philosophical provocative way/themes.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Which types do you think are the least and most open minded? You can look at this from a few perspectives. Js often tend to come across as less open minded than Ps on the surface. There is an argument that dominant perceivers are more open minded than dominant judgers which is opposite of that. There is also the perception of open mindedness vs. what a person is really like internally. Then there is the aspect of how people interact and come across to others, which can open up dialogue or shut down conversations.
    I think defining what "open minded" means might help some. If open minded means open to new information before making a decision, then dominant perceivers will be more open minded than dominant judgers.

    Jung noted this in his text and said that if those with dominant judging really understood how open ended the world of the dominant perceiver was, they would be horrified.

    An inetersting example-my INTJ son coaches me to share ideas with the prefix "I think...." to indicate that I am not certain and that I am open to new information. My ENTJ daughter laughs and says "That's stupid, of course I know the right answer, so I just say what I think it is"

    I also note that my ENTJ partner is most receptive to certainty in my statements and doenst listen if I wax and wane about perceptions. Its almost like a key that needs to fit a lock, in order for the information to be absorbed.

  4. #44
    Alchemist of Life Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubiquitin View Post
    An inetersting example-my INTJ son coaches me to share ideas with the prefix "I think...." to indicate that I am not certain and that I am open to new information. My ENTJ daughter laughs and says "That's stupid, of course I know the right answer, so I just say what I think it is"

    I also note that my ENTJ partner is most receptive to certainty in my statements and doenst listen if I wax and wane about perceptions. Its almost like a key that needs to fit a lock, in order for the information to be absorbed.
    My freshman English teacher told us not to preface our ideas with "I think", on the principle that, if we didn't think it, we wouldn't say it. In other words, unless we are attributing an idea to someone else, it is obvious that "I" the speaker/writer is the one thinking it. I agreed instantly and have never looked back.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #45
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubiquitin View Post
    I think defining what "open minded" means might help some. If open minded means open to new information before making a decision, then dominant perceivers will be more open minded than dominant judgers.

    Jung noted this in his text and said that if those with dominant judging really understood how open ended the world of the dominant perceiver was, they would be horrified.

    An inetersting example-my INTJ son coaches me to share ideas with the prefix "I think...." to indicate that I am not certain and that I am open to new information. My ENTJ daughter laughs and says "That's stupid, of course I know the right answer, so I just say what I think it is"

    I also note that my ENTJ partner is most receptive to certainty in my statements and doenst listen if I wax and wane about perceptions. Its almost like a key that needs to fit a lock, in order for the information to be absorbed.
    Good thought. I meant the common usage which would be people are willing to consider new ideas, open to other points of view, accepting of information and willing to change a decision when new information comes to light, etc. I'm very high on "openness" in big 5. It's my highest score. Then again, am also an INTJ and people may perceive INTJs as unwilling to accept other points of view. It might have something to do with introversion, Te communication style, or that their reasoning often isn't transparent to others.

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  6. #46
    Quintessence of Wrath Exolvuntur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Good thought. I meant the common usage which would be people are willing to consider new ideas, open to other points of view, accepting of information and willing to change a decision when new information comes to light, etc. I'm very high on "openness" in big 5. It's my highest score. Then again, am also an INTJ and people may perceive INTJs as unwilling to accept other points of view. It might have something to do with introversion, Te communication style, or that their reasoning often isn't transparent to others.
    I am the same way, which is why I thought it was imperative to make a distinction between understanding and accepting new ideas. You can perfectly understand another's viewpoint, and see its implications. But that doesn't mean it is better than your current viewpoint and how you use it/goals you have.
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  7. #47
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Good thought. I meant the common usage which would be people are willing to consider new ideas, open to other points of view, accepting of information and willing to change a decision when new information comes to light, etc. I'm very high on "openness" in big 5. It's my highest score. Then again, am also an INTJ and people may perceive INTJs as unwilling to accept other points of view. It might have something to do with introversion, Te communication style, or that their reasoning often isn't transparent to others.
    First of all, I feel like I need to explain that I am not one to generalize. The only people whom I think this applies to are individuals who have already proven to do so.
    Probably just the loudest and most unhealthy minority.

    I just don't bother to argue with certain INTJ because they'll just open up all sorts of logical fallacies, irrelevant points, stone-walling, ad homonyms and basically getting really emotional and reactionary. Most exasperating is that these type of INTJ do not seem understand the concept of opinion v fact; ie the way they will get into a serious and vitriolic debate over shit like " Who is best girl" and have an even harder time with the idea that " I like/dislike does not equal is objectively good/bad." and their reasoning is very transparent; the ol' " I replace emotion with logic" reasoning; Ipso facto, I cannot possibly be emotional while I am screaming at and insulting you.


    On the other hand I have met some very even tempered and reasonable INTJ who's debating skills greatly impress me. I do wonder what is the difference. Are the former just the stereotypical nerd in Mother's basement, and is therefore is not used to being challenged or having to work with others? In my own experience, that is the conclusion I would draw.
    Or maybe I;m putting the cart before the horse. Maybe that sort of life style can fashion one into a very unhealthy INTJ? Hell, maybe this is what happens when an ENTJ becomes lonely and depressed too.


    In response to the thread; I really think it depends more on your environment than type. I think that seeing a variety of people and places and understanding that so many realities besides your own exist is what shapes one's world view. If someone never leaves their small town and is only surrounded by other of the same demographic they will have a harder time believing that situations are different for other people.
    Hence the " Eh, I've seen it all." sort of attitude that more open-minded have.
    “ they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time”
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  8. #48
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuu View Post
    On the other hand I have met some very even tempered and reasonable INTJ who's debating skills greatly impress me. I do wonder what is the difference. Are the former just the stereotypical nerd in Mother's basement, and is therefore is not used to being challenged or having to work with others? In my own experience, that is the conclusion I would draw.
    Or maybe I;m putting the cart before the horse. Maybe that sort of life style can fashion one into a very unhealthy INTJ? Hell, maybe this is what happens when an ENTJ becomes lonely and depressed too.
    The key challenge is that as a result of dominant intuition followed by thinking, we leap to conclusions without communicating what all goes behind those. I think a couple things come into play - development of social interaction skills, communications skills and development of the tertiary. When I was younger, it was frustrating that people didn't see things which to me were completely obvious and I had a hard time explaining my rationale. I would tend to think they were stupid and would sit there steaming in my frustration. As time progressed, I better appreciated that people needed those explanations and got better at giving them, as well as having greater tolerance for those who didn't understand and a better appreciation for the validity of other perspectives, opinions and conclusions.

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  9. #49
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The key challenge is that as a result of dominant intuition followed by thinking, we leap to conclusions without communicating what all goes behind those. I think a couple things come into play - development of social interaction skills, communications skills and development of the tertiary. When I was younger, it was frustrating that people didn't see things which to me were completely obvious and I had a hard time explaining my rationale. I would tend to think they were stupid and would sit there steaming in my frustration. As time progressed, I better appreciated that people needed those explanations and got better at giving them, as well as having greater tolerance for those who didn't understand and a better appreciation for the validity of other perspectives, opinions and conclusions.
    Actually, I can very strongly relate to that. As I like to joke " My S friend treats me like I'm stupid or not using the 100% exact wording, meanwhile I think he's stupid for not understand context." I laugh on the outside but it is...wearying to have everyone treat you like you're mentally deficient because they don't see the things you do.

    That's an acceptable solution, unfortunately I am just the worst at expressing my thoughts or motives. It usually just makes me look even more stupid.
    “ they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time”

  10. #50
    Senior Member ducks's Avatar
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    I'm probably going to get flak for this, but I think openness in Big 5 is a pretty big general indicator of how narrow-minded or open-minded someone is. And most seem to agree that correlates with intuition in MBTI. Of course, this ignores all contextual information and what kind of open-ness each person and type has or doesn't have. I mean we can be narrow-minded on ideologies if it's believed why certain ones are flawed or have differing values that contradict certain things or be very open to say adrenaline experiences, but not one where you sit and appreciate a piece of art and your favorite surroundings all day. Actually I take that back, it's very complicated. You'd probably have to explain how each type is open-minded to certain things, while close-minded to other things.

    I guess you could apply the socionics superego concept to the types. So INTJ -> NiTe would be narrow-minded when it comes to Si and Fe. But open-minded to Ni-Se and Te-Fi. Or something like that.

    For example, I think I'm pretty open to anything that involves understanding and describing a situation as a kind of intuition about where things are going and why and what it all means as a kind of Ni. Whereas my mom who is probably an Si type before all else, is more of an artist or somebody that appreciates a certain aesthetic...uh feeling...of her environment. It's important for her to always kind of put out a certain kind of experience, whether it's with food or aesthetics, or just a kind of sensational feeling she wants others to feel. Naturally, we do clash in that regard...we both kind of don't appreciate each other's mental focus. So we're narrow-minded to each other, but open-minded to our proclivities.

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