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  1. #31
    Vulnera Sanentur Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dareyth View Post
    This should all be a given, and in and out groups will still exist. Example: Me, vs you and Jaguar right now in this discussion. You are assuming I did not think of these things due to how I talk in general statements. Generalized or not, there will always be sides.

    I am also more talking about ideas, and not necessarily the physical reality. There are in and outgroups of ideas. We so naturally assemble in them to whenever there is a side to be taken in anything. You will naturally ally with people, who think like you. And just as easily leave the group when they do not. It isn't static. You don't have to agree with everything a group stands for, to be part of it as well. You are using the ingroup in a mutural relationship to further your values and beliefs against an outgroup.
    This is becoming vague almost to the point of tautology, and I didn't need to assume your thoughts to explain mine. You can decide whether you agree with them or not. Even in the realm of ideas, it is simplistic to assume animosity among people with different opinions, or monolithic thought within a group sharing similar opinions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  2. #32
    Rising of the dick hero Dareyth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is becoming vague almost to the point of tautology, and I didn't need to assume your thoughts to explain mine. You can decide whether you agree with them or not. Even in the realm of ideas, it is simplistic to assume animosity among people with different opinions, or monolithic thought within a group sharing similar opinions.
    Kinda hard to keep track of everything too, when everyone wants to talk to me at once.
    The beginning of the end is beginning.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is becoming vague almost to the point of tautology, and I didn't need to assume your thoughts to explain mine. You can decide whether you agree with them or not. Even in the realm of ideas, it is simplistic to assume animosity among people with different opinions, or monolithic thought within a group sharing similar opinions.
    That was one of the reasons I posted a video of Pres. GW Bush's speech at John Lewis's funeral yesterday.

    "Listen, John and I had our disagreements of course, but in the America John Lewis fought for and the America I believe in, differences of opinion are inevitable elements and evidence of democracy in action."
    Byedon 2020
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  4. #34
    Senior Member VILLANELLE's Avatar
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    I have to agree with this post .... I'm stoned and opened another tab and any chance for a good serious reply is gone. But, I agree. I think people are afraid of what they don't understand. They are afraid of what they don't know and haven't experienced. If it doesn't look or feel familiar, they don't want it. Which is sad and outdated because the world is changing, and people who fail to adapt are even sadder. Racism, sexism, misogyny, bigotry it's all terrible and there's so many micro-things involved too, much like an umbrella.

    And above all, some people think wearing a mask for your safety is somehow politicial and fake. I'm a bit too stoned to really go deep and use better wordage. There really was more I wanted to contribute, but that's... part.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Smoke more. You did fine.
    Byedon 2020
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  6. #36
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerix View Post
    Yeah, I agree, more practical things should be taught in school. Finances / money management, the laws and legal rights where they live, etc. We have physical education/health requirements...why don't we have mental education/health requirements? Financial education/health?

    I can see your point in indoctrinating people through a system that way, and systems do often have a pattern of becoming more corrupt over time. I think that's in part because corrupt people are attracted to power, but regardless of whether that's actually why, the indoctrination is indeed a vulnerability. We've already seen some issues in schools with misinformation about historical events and figures, etc.

    One problem I see in this though is that I think that a lot of people are already resistant to influence in general, thus causing soooo so many people to get stuck in unhealthy behaviors and decisions, repeating the same issues throughout their lives (which is also in part caused by lack of education). Without knowing what to look for, people might just become fearful of or rebellious against outside influence, including in negative ways, just simply because it's influence, which is what we're already seeing with the refusal to wear masks. While I do believe being sheeple / having a cult mentality is a real problem that should be addressed, I don't think independent thinking necessarily addresses the root of the issue enough, and a lot of people may think they're making their own choices and that they're simply agreeing or showing support or something without being aware that they're being influenced. I think it's important for people to start making more informed/educated decisions, too, or to be aware of when/how they're being influenced, but that just ties back into people being more educated about mental health.

    If part of independent thinking involved educating yourself more, then you have the problem where there will be a lot of faulty resources and misinformation that is ingrained in people who don't educate themselves properly, or in various resources put out there to mislead others deliberately. I think that if colleges/universities can handle classroom education on psychology, then schools in general should be able to also, no? I just think it's important for people to be unified in having knowledge of the most accurate information available. Furthermore, a lot of people wouldn't even value or see the importance of mental health education. You'd have to basically have a society that values education, and frankly...I don't think we have that. I think people mostly just live their lives and try to enjoy themselves unless they're fueled by pretentiousness often times. A genuine curiosity or desire for education isn't all that common, and people would have to be motivated to self-teach if going the independent thinking without standardized education route.


    I also think there's a key factor at play here, and that is that in this case you're educating people about how to identify how people (narcissists, etc.) manipulate, control, etc...thus, you're essentially equipping people to recognize corrupt influence (which would backfire quite a bit if they were also a corrupt influence). I think there'd be so many educators involved that it'd be difficult to streamline corruption into it, especially since they'd be among so many others who would be trained to recognize those things (and teach others how to).
    I think the problems you cite are undeniable, and your solutions are reasoned, logical, and even practical- good kernels for seeding potential change in public school policy and curriculum. I myself like simple solutions- as a "mechanic" by nature they are often the best solutions, in my opinion. Simple solutions, predicated on as much complicated data as possible- including, in this case, data on effective methods of learning, environmental influences (which include aspects of genetic predisposition) and the structure and nature of formal systems themselves. There are many ways to fix a problem, many ways to approach it. The more data we can include in our considerations, the better our solutions will be.

    In regards to this subject, there are some data points that confound a bit. Corruption, for example. While (anything is) possible under the right circumstances, I don't think the greatest corruption threat comes from corrupting the message in and of itself to students from teachers. The more likely, and typical of government programs, corruption threat comes for the sake of money at the cost of effectiveness. I'd be more concerned the programs ultimately melted into a nearly functionless effort of extremely low impact, just for the sake of keeping money flowing to particular pockets- the way the quality of public schooling has tanked for the sake of passing standardized mandated testing. Resources being finite, it would be a shame to waste any of them on ineffectual ventures. Tacticians might work to stave off corruption of that variety, but it is a concern I'd leave on the table.

    Another confounding data point is the nature of learning. It's hard to teach people things they don't have direct experience with. Interest tends to be superficial and fleeting, and in a classroom it can create an infectious group apathy or distraction. The few students who might suddenly recognize what was being taught as immediately pertinent to their situation might get lost in the sea of their own peers who laugh-at and dismiss it. You can beat a few things into kids heads- like don't play in traffic- but most of life has to be learned through direct experimentation I think. Maybe I'm wrong. I think history repeats itself, on a grand scale, because even though the lessons are there in the history books for people to read and empower themselves with, it just doesn't matter. Every generation has to learn its own lessons- most of them the same lessons older generations already learned and tried in vain to pass on. Most people don't learn anything they truly need to know until after something happens, and we conduct psychological autopsies on it. How many people do you know who know/care at all about narcissistic personality disorder that didn't acquire a learning interest in the subject after having encountered and been victimized by one? We have so much data to parse just from our own experiences, that projecting possible future experiences and attempting to learn how to deal with all of those possible projections is often just outside the scope of our tiny wads of grey matter.

    One area I tend to break from conventional psychology is often in favor of a person's natural inclinations, predating learned behavior. These might be thoughts that only I entertain, so feel free to disregard them as contentious and still within the realm of mystery. I don't think every person is a completely blank slate, and I don't believe every person is good until made evil by the world around them. Innocent, perhaps- but not good. Children are innocent sadists in my experience, and distinct personalities seem to be formed seemingly arbitrarily at birth. If you watch a baby grow up, especially multiple babies, you know that parts of their personality are present since the day they arrive- prior to any nurturing influence. These seem to ripple outward into variable distinctions in preference, behavior, and ultimately learning style- which must be accounted for in the creation of any system designed to target all public school students as a unified demographic. Stubborn types might understand the nature of standing up for ones self, but gentler follower types might fail to hear the lesson at all if a more powerful voice in their lives trumped it.

    It's hard to teach people things. Even two fully capable parents dedicating as much of their time and resources as possible to raise a kid correctly can struggle to pull it off. The only way I can conceive of addressing the issue is just to build better people from the start, but that's the self-terminating catch isn't it? Confounding all around.
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  7. #37
    blackbird, fly Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cat View Post
    It's a hell of a catch that catch 22
    It's the best there is.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi


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  8. #38
    Senior Member VILLANELLE's Avatar
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    I'm just wanting to add that, like.. Humans needs to be kinder to each other. The world is changing, and yeah everything is political these days... and it shouldn't be. Because there are certain things that are getting politicized for the wrong reasons. Nobody wants to listen and grow and change. Everyone has their differences, and differences are fine, but when you harm another person because of their views or your views or whatever, that's where it draws a line. And I assume that's been happning for a long time.

    People are tired and angry, me included. I used to think that being a feminist, because I'm not going to feel bad for bringing this up! I deserve to take up space! -- Ok, so, I used to think being feminist meant just being glad to be a girl, and to be for abortion, I thought that was the extent of my opennness. I'm still learning, I'm far from perfect, but I've learned a lot about myself over the years. Feminism and anti-sexism and many other isms need to be more inclusive...

    I really meant to say more but I'm stoned again and trying to out-do myself in a reply.
    i see darkness in you
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