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  1. #61
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Oct 2013


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    Would you please provide me with specific examples of what “the left” is doing first? We need to have a good faith discussion.

    Also, while that’s great for you and your family, why do you suppose only 12% of nurses are men? You managed to give me anecdotal examples but didn’t give me any indication you understood my point. It’d be like if I told you vaccines help reduce deaths, cited some statistics, and then you mention a cousin who didn’t get vaccinated and lived.
    Let me take another shot at a response worthy of your time.

    It's difficult to provide specific examples of what the left is 'doing' exactly, as the left is less to me an entity that does things and more a system of ideas that people subscribe to. On this particular point (gender and profession), I can only offer up what aspects of this system I perceive to the best of my abilities, my contentions to these ideas, and the reasoning for my contentions. So far you've refuted my perception that the left is seeking to artificially force gender equity across the board professionally through top-down means, and is instead only interested in removing legitimate barriers to entry for all positions regardless of gender. So far here we are agreed, I think, and I was hoping to find a barrier we could both recognize as such and agree on.

    I can agree that there has at some point in american history (up to and including today for the sake of argument) been a social stigma against men becoming nurses because of the inherit femininity required for the position- an inheritance I will defend with reasoning shortly- and I can wholeheartedly agree that a man who has the rare natural constitution to become a nurse should not be shamed for what he is or blocked from fulfilling his potential in the field, not just for his own good but for the sake of the society that will benefit from his care. Where I come into disagreement with the left, or at least what I perceive from the left based on their language, is how much people's decisions are based on vague allusions to public shaming and other less explicit barriers, or simply their natural preferences that are informed largely by their biologically imbued strengths. I feel like the left believes people are much less independent than they actually are- more sheep than individuals- and that since they just do what anyone tells them to do, telling them to do something else is the remedy. I do not agree with this fundamental, and the consequential approach. At best it simply won't work to satisfaction, and at worst it can generate a blow-back of Donald Trump proportions.

    Here is my reasoning for why I think nursing is an inherently feminine profession, which I think accounts for a large reason (arguably not the entire reason) of why the male representation in that field is 12%. This is a good subject for me because nursing is something I know intimately, so I can lean on some empirical data- which is the only data I'm any good at working with. I would say the three primary strengths required to succeed at nursing are as follows:

    1) Stamina (12 hour shifts of moderate physical exertion)
    The study from the University of Columbia asked seventeen participants – nine women and eight men – to flex one foot two hundred times as quickly as they possibly could.

    The results showed that while the men appeared to be stronger and faster, they became fatigued a lot quicker than women.

    One author of the study, Professor Brian Dalton, said: ‘We’ve known for some time that women are less fatigable than men during isometric muscle tests – static exercises where joints don’t move, such as holding a weight – but we wanted to find out if that’s true during more dynamic and practical everyday movements.

    He explained that while the test was only carried out using participants feet, the stamina theory applies to the whole body.

    ‘We know from previous research that for events like ultra-trail running, males may complete them faster but females are considerably less tired by the end,’ he continued.
    2) Verbal memory (for numbers like blood pressure, etc and drug names)

    Researchers at the Karolinska Institutet in Sweden performed a meta-analysis of 617 studies of episodic memory conducted between 1973 and 2013, which included more than 1.2 million participants.

    “Generally, women perform better when it comes to remembering verbal information, such as words, sentences, texts, and objects, but also the location of objects, and movies,” said Agneta Herlitz, professor of psychology at the Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institutet, and leader of the research group. “Men can better recall abstract images and remember their way back from one location to another. Furthermore, there is a female advantage when it comes to remembering faces and with sensory memories, such as smells.”
    3) Interpersonal communication skills/teamwork/empathy (for working both with patients and other hospital personnel- and dealing with the politics therein)

    Mercadillo and his colleagues describe an experiment featuring 12 women and 12 men. As the participants viewed a series of 100 photographs, their brains were scanned using fMRI technology. Every second image was one that evoked compassion (according to previous research). Examples included sad human faces, war scenes and depictions of famine.

    “No gender differences were observed in the frequency of reported compassionate experiences,” the researchers report. However, what was happening in the participants’ brain told a different story. As the compassion-evoking photos were viewed, activity was observed in two areas of the brain — the thalamus and the putamen, part of the basal ganglia — in women but not in men.

    “Also, women showed a greater activation in the cerebellum, a structure governing fine movement control that is also involved in judgment, selective attention and affective experiences,” they report. “The cerebellum may play a role in the decision to execute helping actions.”
    I assume people listen to themselves and know what kinds of things they would like or not like on an instinctual gut-level, and from that I don't see why it's statistically unreasonable for women to dramatically dominate that field.

    I myself work in the building trades, with an even greater margin between male and female representation. Why do you think that is?

  2. #62
    Macabre Reputation Thestralis's Avatar
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    Apr 2010
    5w6 sp/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Thats a bit of a hyperbolic observation, Coriois is the only person I initiate discussions on this topic with- something that has gone back years. If you want to step in as her white knight, im happy to oblige you- your patience for statistical research has impressed me in the past.
    @Jonny is raising many of the points I would make myself, if I had time. I am currently preoccupied with RL matters, and don't know when I will be able to rejoin the discussion.
    They are quite gentle, really, but people avoid them because they are a bit . . . different.

  3. #63
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Oct 2013


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    @Jonny is raising many of the points I would make myself, if I had time. I am currently preoccupied with RL matters, and don't know when I will be able to rejoin the discussion.
    It takes me a few days to find time to sit down at a computer and participate adequately myself.

    Heres some enjoyable reading material on the subject for you to consume at your leisure on the go:

    Political scientific biases: The left is guilty of unscientific dogma too — Quartz

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