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The Illusion of Time

Mole

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We perceive the Sun going round the Earth and we know this is an illusion. In the same way, according to quantum mechanics and relativity, our perception of time is also an illusion.
 

Lib

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Actually, time is moving in one direction so it's not an illusion. It's because of entropy, which is also called the arrow of time - total entropy is the only quantity that cannot be reversed to a previous state. The scale of time can be quite different because locally entropy is increasing at different speed.
 

Mole

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Actually, time is moving in one direction so it's not an illusion. It's because of entropy, which is also called the arrow of time - total entropy is the only quantity that cannot be reversed to a previous state. The scale of time can be quite different because locally entropy is increasing at different speed.
We perceive time as universal,with a universal now, and we perceive clocks as rinning at the same speed. All are illusions of perception.
 

Lib

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We perceive time as universal,with a universal now, and we perceive clocks as rinning at the same speed. All are illusions of perception.
It's not all illusions of perception - what you perceive is very real. If time is an illusion then we are an illusion too because our existence corresponds to a certain state of entropy, i.e. certain time. Time scales are relative to one another but it doesn't make them invalid, only negligible in some cases. For example, the timescale of a diamond degradation is much different than the timescale of a human life put under the same condition.

The fact that you are not able to perceive everything doesn't mean that what you experience is not real. But the interpretation of the perceived information could be illusory.
 

Mole

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It's not all illusions of perception - what you perceive is very real. If time is an illusion then we are an illusion too because our existence corresponds to a certain state of entropy, i.e. certain time. Time scales are relative to one another but it doesn't make them invalid, only negligible in some cases. For example, the timescale of a diamond degradation is much different than the timescale of a human life put under the same condition. The fact that you are not able to perceive everything doesn't mean that what you experience is not real. But the interpretation of the perceived information could be illusory.

Although we know Newtonian physics is a perceptual illusion, it can get us to the Moon and back.
 

Mole

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It's not all illusions of perception - what you perceive is very real. If time is an illusion then we are an illusion too because our existence corresponds to a certain state of entropy, i.e. certain time. Time scales are relative to one another but it doesn't make them invalid, only negligible in some cases. For example, the timescale of a diamond degradation is much different than the timescale of a human life put under the same condition. The fact that you are not able to perceive everything doesn't mean that what you experience is not real. But the interpretation of the perceived information could be illusory.

Tale a new pack of cards - it has low entropy. Now shuffle the cards and the entropy increases, we have the same number of cards in the same pack. So entropy itself is a perceptuall illusion.
 

Lib

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Although we know Newtonian physics is a perceptual illusion, it can get us to the Moon and back.
Actually, QM mathematics demonstrated that Newtonian physics is describing the macroword reality, with certain simplification applied to earth mainly the concerning absoluteness of time and space, almost perfectly! Newton himself noticed that the notions of time and space as absolute are not necessarily true in a broader scale. He was focused on describing how things work so absolute time and space gave him a theoretical foundation to describe what he sees. No other person had achieved so much in describing so realistically the natural world and giving the tools to create technology and other, more broad theories, so his work and deductions are as farthest from illusion as is humanly possible.

You might wanna define illusion first before trashing Newton.
 

Mole

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Actually, QM mathematics demonstrated that Newtonian physics is describing the macroword reality, with certain simplification applied to earth mainly the concerning absoluteness of time and space, almost perfectly! Newton himself noticed that the notions of time and space as absolute are not necessarily true in a broader scale. He was focused on describing how things work so absolute time and space gave him a theoretical foundation to describe what he sees. No other person had achieved so much in describing so realistically the natural world and giving the tools to create technology and other, more broad theories, so his work and deductions are as farthest from illusion as is humanly possible.

You might wanna define illusion first before trashing Newton.

Einstein trashed Newton. Are you afraid I might trash you?

Newton is visual man, while Einstein is aural man. The ear has replaced the eye.

Quantum mechanics is about resonance, it is about the ear rather than the eye.

You to can't see your way clear to agree with me, but you could listen to the sound of my voice. How would you feel?
 

Lib

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Tale a new pack of cards - it has low entropy. Now shuffle the cards and the entropy increases, we have the same number of cards in the same pack. So entropy itself is a perceptuall illusion.
That's not entropy :D
 

Lib

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Einstein trashed Newton. Are you afraid I might trash you?

Newton is visual man, while Einstein is aural man. The ear has replaced the eye.

Quantum mechanics is about resonance, it is about the ear rather than the eye.

You to can't see your way clear to agree with me, but you could listen to the sound of my voice. How would you feel?
Einstein had never trashed Newton. In fact, he questioned the absoluteness of time and space based on some texts where Newton himself suggested that time and space must be infinite.

I don't understand your analogy about sight and hearing. Einstein was having very realistic imagination in pictures for which reason he could spot contradictions very easily. If you are trying to say that Einstein was better with 'waves' then you are wrong.
 

Mole

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Einstein had never trashed Newton. In fact, he questioned the absoluteness of time and space based on some texts where Newton himself suggested that time and space must be infinite.

I don't understand your analogy about sight and hearing. Einstein was having very realistic imagination in pictures for which reason he could spot contradictions very easily. If you are trying to say that Einstein was better with 'waves' then you are wrong.

How do you feel as you declare Mole to be wrong?

Do you think Mole is declaring you to be wrong?

How do you feel being wrong?
 

BlueScreen

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Why? (is time an illusion)
I believe it is because Mole said so.

I'm not sure we have ever truly understood anything we theorise about, so time could just be something invented by humans based on our perceptual experience (much like logic is). The universe probably doesn't care for our logic or truly reflect it, but things like time help us to track and understand things in an intuitive way so we use them.

Whether there is any actual absolute when it comes to what's real is another question. Would the experience of some other arbitrary creature or particle out there in the universe be totally different to our experience? Perhaps. Might that creature conclude something completely different about time or the universe? Perhaps. Still our perception is our reality. If time as it appears to us is the way that time is to us, I'm not sure there is an illusion.
 

Lib

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How do you feel as you declare Mole to be wrong?

Do you think Mole is declaring you to be wrong?

How do you feel being wrong?
You speak about illusions. I think you should define illusion first. From my part, I just like to discuss such ideas and won't mind learning something new.

Entropy is an increase in disorder. We first perceive the order then we perceive the disorder.
Entropy is the opposite of disorder. If you change entropy in one part of the room applying force, than the state of entropy in the other part is also going to be influenced. This isn't a disorder, but a tendency towards increase in the overall symmetry.

Anyway, I agree with you that we shouldn't trust our perceptions alone, if that's what you're trying to say. But in the same time, our senses help us build referent systems to observe reoccurring patterns that aren't illusory. Ironically, perceptions are the only way out of illusions.
 

Tater

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"Illusion" has to be one of the most interesting concepts to define. "Entropy" as well.
 

Tater

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(1) If the objective world exists only in the present moment, and "time" denotes change and movement between "past", present, or "future", then time does not exist in the objective world.

(2) If the objective world operates only according to a logical order, and "entropy" denotes disorder, then entropy does not exist in the objective world.

(3) If illusions are subjective concepts or subjective perceptions that do not represent objective world phenomena, and 1 and 2 are valid, then "entropy" and "time" are illusions.
 

Lib

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(1) If the objective world exists only in the present moment, and "time" denotes change and movement between "past", present, or "future", then time does not exist in the objective world.

(2) If the objective world operates only according to a logical order, and "entropy" denotes disorder, then entropy does not exist in the objective world.

(3) If illusions are subjective concepts or subjective perceptions that do not represent objective world phenomena, and 1 and 2 are valid, then "entropy" and "time" are illusions.

(1) What is a present moment?

(2) Why do you think that entropy is a disorder?

(3) Then the notion of illusion is also... an illusion :shock:
 
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