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Electric Cars

Coriolis

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Are they really better for the environment than conventional gas-fueled cars? Sure - they don't burn fossil fuels directly, but that electricity has to be generated somewhere, so it is only as "clean" as the originating power plant. I have also read that the batteries contain a number of materials that are hazardous and difficult to obtain, and even more difficult to dispose of.

Here are a couple articles discussing the pros and cons:

How eco-friendly are electric cars?
Electric cars could save the planet

Thoughts?



(NB: this is not the Politics subforum, so the focus here should be on the technical aspects of electric cars, not public policy.)
 

Maou

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No, I do not think they are environmentally as friendly as you think. Their batteries are made of lithium, and that usually entails strip mining to obtain. Then disposal is toxic as well, as batteries can leak into water supplies etc.

This is what a lithium mine looks like

geg111tpl-1-1.jpg


Sometimes, it is far more devastating to the environment than CO2 emissions/oil drilling and fracking.

Which is why I am a firm believer in choices, rather than a single focus energy. Because that reduces the demand on all things, and stops the cons from certain types snowballing out of control.
 

ducks

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Well you can set up a windmill, solar panels, or electric dam to produce energy. So if you do that, I'm almost certain it's a lot better for the environment than using gasoline.

Just to give you an idea, I bought a Honda clarity. It goes about 40 to 50 miles on the electric battery and takes about 12 hours to charge on a 120v line from a dead battery (I thin it's 17kw battery). So if I travel to work about 30 miles away, I could charge the car with a 1.5kw solar grid at home and that gives me pretty good environmentally friendly emissions, especially if I plug it in at work and if that the electrical grid uses windmills, electric dams, or a solar grid to produce some or most of its electrical energy. And that's not even that expensive to buy a solar panel like that.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Emissions-wise, yes, definitely more environmentally friendly, but as already noted, the process involved in obtaining the lithium for the batteries is pretty detrimental to the environment. It reminds me of those green light bulbs, which contain some nasty shit. They're great, except disposing of them practically requires a hazmat team, and I wonder how many people just toss them directly into the trash can when they burn out, either ignorant of the proper disposal methods, or too lazy to care.

Also, some localities operate on coal powered electricity. So you're charging your super green car with very un-green power if you live in a district or state that is not powered by wind or solar. FTR I fully support a move away from carbon based energy. Surface level bandaids like green bulbs and electric cars are only as good as the source of the energy they're being powered on.

And yeah, those strip mines are pretty disgusting. Of course I had hoped as a kid that by this year we'd have ended most mining on Earth and be getting our minerals and metals from asteroids and neighboring moons and planets, that every car and home would be powered by cold fusion.
 

Lib

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And yeah, those strip mines are pretty disgusting. Of course I had hoped as a kid that by this year we'd have ended most mining on Earth and be getting our minerals and metals from asteroids and neighboring moons and planets, that every car and home would be powered by cold fusion.
The space group in my university works with NASA on a number of projects including sending robots to the moon, where the metals are concentrated in the dust - you don't need to dig or anything. Besides, going back to earth wouldn't consume much energy. It's still about exploring this possibility, though, to my knowledge they haven't sent anything so far. Yeah, cold fusion is one of my wildest dreams too, and I'm not even a kid. It's such a neat idea.

But even coal plants don't need to be so polluting. It depends how you organize it. Today's coal plants use lime to absorb CO2 and SO2 from the flue gas, producing gypsum. You can't apply the same technology in a car. In fact, the reduction of S-content in fuel (which is converted to SO2 upon burning) is a very tricky business, one of the greatest bottle necks for the whole oil industry. In cars, you use filters to clean flue gas (and catalysts as in the plants), which filters you need to dispose somewhere, and the fuels are much better quality than coal, thus, much more costly to produce. Overall, it's easier and more productive to control emissions if they are centralized.

Another clear advantage of the electric cars is that city environment, where is the greatest concentration of people, becomes much cleaner. But the batteries in general are the real problem, although in my opinion, only a temporary one.
 

spirilis

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When it comes to greenhouse gas emissions of the "fuel", you can often scope out your local power grid using Electricitymap (if they have a feed for your local grid)-

electricityMap | Live CO2 emissions of electricity consumption

Where I live, PJM Interconnection is the local grid operator, and their mix is about 1/3 coal, 1/3 natural gas, 1/3 nuclear with single-digit contributions of hydro and wind (and <1% solar) dotted in there somewhere.

Because Nuclear plants are built to run economically at full power all the time, they tend to run at 100% and the fossil fuels adjust to compensate for load. In the morning, then, the fuel mix is cleaner because less FF used than in the afternoon.

emap_pjm_08232018_morning.png


I just got to work, and plugged in my EV at the L2 station in the office parking lot. Right now at 389 "gCO2eq" per grid kwh, and a Level 2 charging efficiency of ~85% (measured before), my battery is receiving 1 kwh for about 457gCO2, which drives me 4 miles, netting 114gCO2 per mile.

1 gallon of gasoline combusted (without considering lifecycle GHG of crude oil production, refining, distribution/transportation) produces 20 pounds CO2 or 9071 grams CO2. I would have to drive a gasoline powered car getting (9071/114) = 79 miles per gallon to run as clean as my EV right now.

The one stickler here is the fact that I'm adding to the grid, which expands FF usage. That's not accounted for here - does incrementally adding FF to compensate for added loads produce more GHG than just burning gasoline?
Then again, is it only FF being added? I know not too far away from here Exelon Generation owns a pumped hydro facility for load-following, is that compensating for my increased power usage instead of natural gas (typically it's NG that ramps up to load-follow)?
 

spirilis

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Additional food for thought, and this is studying (almost**) the exact vehicle I own-

Ford, LG Chem Present Cradle-To-Gate GHG Analysis For Focus Electric

If I'm reading that graph right, the GHG load of a new Focus BEV is ~3 tons CO2 higher than the gasoline-powered version, or 2.7 million grams CO2. Comparing the Focus ICE (avg 35mpg which sounds about right for similar vehicles, or 259 gCO2/mile) to Focus BEV (~114 gCO2/mile right now), for a delta of 145gCO2/mile, I would "save" that much after 18,769 miles, making that the crossover point where the Focus BEV is a net GHG environmental benefit. That's assuming optimistic GHG of electricity around here (but truthfully it doesn't deviate too far and I usually do charge at night or in the morning).

But of course this isn't accounting for the non-GHG related environmental impact of lithium, cobalt, neodymium mining et al. Nor is it comparing with the environmental impact of gasoline production...

** - mine is the 2017 version with the larger battery, not sure how that changes things.
 

ducks

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Emissions-wise, yes, definitely more environmentally friendly, but as already noted, the process involved in obtaining the lithium for the batteries is pretty detrimental to the environment. It reminds me of those green light bulbs, which contain some nasty shit. They're great, except disposing of them practically requires a hazmat team, and I wonder how many people just toss them directly into the trash can when they burn out, either ignorant of the proper disposal methods, or too lazy to care.

Also, some localities operate on coal powered electricity. So you're charging your super green car with very un-green power if you live in a district or state that is not powered by wind or solar. FTR I fully support a move away from carbon based energy. Surface level bandaids like green bulbs and electric cars are only as good as the source of the energy they're being powered on.

And yeah, those strip mines are pretty disgusting. Of course I had hoped as a kid that by this year we'd have ended most mining on Earth and be getting our minerals and metals from asteroids and neighboring moons and planets, that every car and home would be powered by cold fusion.

I was wondering how hard it would be to put some kind of electrical grid into the roadways. That way, you wouldn't even need batteries and depending on the setup the cost for the grid could be state funded or something. So no cost of energy, other than setup costs for windmills, solar arrays, etc.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I was wondering how hard it would be to put some kind of electrical grid into the roadways. That way, you wouldn't even need batteries and depending on the setup the cost for the grid could be state funded or something. So no cost of energy, other than setup costs for windmills, solar arrays, etc.

Probably pretty expensive initially, but I'd be curious to see how beneficial and cost-effective it was in the long term. Also a potential job creator because of all the construction and maintenance jobs it would create.
 

rav3n

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Additional food for thought, and this is studying (almost**) the exact vehicle I own-

Ford, LG Chem Present Cradle-To-Gate GHG Analysis For Focus Electric

If I'm reading that graph right, the GHG load of a new Focus BEV is ~3 tons CO2 higher than the gasoline-powered version, or 2.7 million grams CO2. Comparing the Focus ICE (avg 35mpg which sounds about right for similar vehicles, or 259 gCO2/mile) to Focus BEV (~114 gCO2/mile right now), for a delta of 145gCO2/mile, I would "save" that much after 18,769 miles, making that the crossover point where the Focus BEV is a net GHG environmental benefit. That's assuming optimistic GHG of electricity around here (but truthfully it doesn't deviate too far and I usually do charge at night or in the morning).

But of course this isn't accounting for the non-GHG related environmental impact of lithium, cobalt, neodymium mining et al. Nor is it comparing with the environmental impact of gasoline production...

** - mine is the 2017 version with the larger battery, not sure how that changes things.
As an FYI:

Union of Concerned Scientists

New data from the US EPA on power plant greenhouse gas emissions are in, and electric vehicles (EV) in the US are even cleaner than they were before. The climate change emissions created by driving on electricity depend on where you live, but on average, an EV driving on electricity in the U.S. today is equivalent to a conventional gasoline car that gets 80 MPG, up from 73 MPG in our 2017 update.

Cleaner electricity means cleaner EVs
Based on data on power plant emissions released in February 2018, driving on electricity is cleaner than gasoline for most drivers in the US. Seventy-five percent of people now live in places where driving on electricity is cleaner than a 50 MPG gasoline car. And based on where people have already bought EVs, electric vehicles now have greenhouse gas emissions equal to an 80 MPG car, much lower than any gasoline-only car available.

2016-map_850_blog-3.jpg
 

Tellenbach

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No one's building the infrastructure to charge EVs in the midwest because people realize this is a bridge technology like the plasma tv; this is a niche technology for coastal hipsters and most Americans are avoiding it. EVs are being propped up by massive government subsidies ($7500/car). Just wait for better technology like hydrogen fuel cells.
 

Coriolis

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No one's building the infrastructure to charge EVs in the midwest because people realize this is a bridge technology like the plasma tv; this is a niche technology for coastal hipsters and most Americans are avoiding it. EVs are being propped up by massive government subsidies ($7500/car). Just wait for better technology like hydrogen fuel cells.
What is the evidence for suggesting hydrogen fuel cells are superior to electric cars? Remember, we must count the entire life cycle environmental impact, including manufacture and eventual disposal.
 

Tellenbach

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Coriolis said:
What is the evidence for suggesting hydrogen fuel cells are superior to electric cars?

Longer range and faster fill-up time.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars creep up — slowly — on electric vehicles

Like pure electric cars, fuel cell cars run quietly and emission-free. But they have some big advantages. Fuel cell cars can be refueled as quickly as gasoline-powered cars. By contrast, it takes nine hours to fully recharge an all-electric Chevrolet Bolt using a 240-volt home charger. Fuel cell cars also can travel farther between fill-ups.

I'm not a fan of either technology right now (both rely on rare earth elements controlled by China); it's entirely possible that both hydrogen fuel cell powered cars and EVs will be replaced by a superior technology in the next decade.
 

Virtual ghost

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The main problem with electric cars is that they require clean energy source to be truly friendly to the environment. What is problematic.


Hydro power - the droughts are getting more frequent and stronger, what drastically reduces the energy produced. Also in many places around the world that energy is already "taken" by houses and industry.

Solar - is ok as long as you don't have a hurricane or major earthquake that will destroy your energy production. What in combination with electric cars means complete paralysis of the region.

Wind - similar as solar but wind doesn't work in all places due to "wind deficit"

Plus even if your energy is more traditional Oil,Gas,Coal,Nuclear that still makes your power lines that stretch through landscape very vulnerable to natural disasters as well as politically driven attacks, which are actually pretty common outside of 1th world.
 

Virtual ghost

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Surface level bandaids like green bulbs and electric cars are only as good as the source of the energy they're being powered on.

That isn't completely true. Green products generally have lower energy consumption and therefore they burn less "crap" in the process.
 

BlueScreen

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No, I do not think they are environmentally as friendly as you think. Their batteries are made of lithium, and that usually entails strip mining to obtain. Then disposal is toxic as well, as batteries can leak into water supplies etc.

This is what a lithium mine looks like

geg111tpl-1-1.jpg


Sometimes, it is far more devastating to the environment than CO2 emissions/oil drilling and fracking.

Which is why I am a firm believer in choices, rather than a single focus energy. Because that reduces the demand on all things, and stops the cons from certain types snowballing out of control.

Tesla Central - You might have seen this lithium mining...

Not that flooding salt flats isn't environmentally destructive either.
 

Maou

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Another thing people need to keep in mind, is that everyday vehicles only contribute to a minescule amout of overall CO2. So until there are electric lorrys, electric trains, and electric cargo planes. We will have almost no impact on the enviroment. Not to mention no control over certain countries that contribute the most to pollution in Asia.

Also, lifespan of most car batteries is up to 100k miles. Before it will likely need replaced, and it is several 1000 dollars. I work for a car company, and I drive a Prius.
 

BlueScreen

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Another thing people need to keep in mind, is that everyday vehicles only contribute to a minescule amout of overall CO2. So until there are electric lorrys, electric trains, and electric cargo planes. We will have almost no impact on the enviroment. Not to mention no control over certain countries that contribute the most to pollution in Asia. Also, lifespan of most car batteries is up to 100k miles. Before it will likely need replaced, and it is several 1000 dollars. I work for a car company, and I drive a Prius.
Thanks. I just thought I'd present Telsa's side of the story.

I actually haven't read that much on electric cars specifically, but know the full lifecycles of our energy sources are often ignored in public debate. Back when I was at uni I remember someone doing a comparitive study of power plants and finding solar photovoltaics were only middle of the range once you included the polution effects of production. The photovoltaics tech might have improved by now though.

Energy for the masses has always been poluting in some form, and I'm happy we are trying to improve that. But I agree that openess in public debate is important so people can make proper decisions and it doesn't just become a marketing thing where the winner spins or hides their polution the best.
 

BlueScreen

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The main problem with electric cars is that they require clean energy source to be truly friendly to the environment. What is problematic. Hydro power - the droughts are getting more frequent and stronger, what drastically reduces the energy produced. Also in many places around the world that energy is already "taken" by houses and industry.
Hydro can have a huge environmental impact too. There's two well known examples of hydro near where I grew up. One was in untouched wilderness and the protests started the world's first Greens party, the other is a constant pain for the environment and farmers downstream who have dried up rivers and are in drought. It doesn't produce CO2 but you have to be really careful calling it clean or green energy because of its impact on ecosystems.
 
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