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Electric Cars

Virtual ghost

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Hydro can have a huge environmental impact too. There's two well known examples of hydro near where I grew up. One started the world's first Greens party, the other is a constant pain for the environment and farmers downstream who have dried up rivers and are in drought. It doesn't produce CO2 but you have to be really careful calling it green energy because of its impact on ecosystems.

If you really want to push the issue...

Hydroelectric dams emit a billion tonnes of greenhouse gases a year, study finds


But in comparison with classic coal power plant hydro is still quite green, if deployed reasonably. So far there is no energy source that is 100% eco friendly.
 

BlueScreen

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If you really want to push the issue... Hydroelectric dams emit a billion tonnes of greenhouse gases a year, study finds But in comparison with classic coal power plant hydro is still quite green, if deployed reasonably. So far there is no energy source that is 100% eco friendly.
:) I normally call BS when I see things like rotting vegetation mentioned as a cause of greenhouse gases in articles. The water will be somewhere and stuff will grow and die in it. When the carbon in and carbon out are on that sort of time scale people are probably missing the point and getting a bit obsessed.

Agree, hydro can be okay where little environment is wrecked for it. But where does that much water flow where changing it has no major impact? Artificial storage dams for load balancing being a different thing.
 

Tellenbach

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I was thinking of batteries and that got me to thinking of radioactive batteries used in pacemakers so I did a search to see if there have been any major advances and I found this:

Ukrainian Scientist Creates Battery That Can Power Smartphones for 12 Years

The senior researcher says he was able to do it by taking advantage of a key property of tritium – the ability to emit electrons. He adds that American company City Labs also makes use of the radioactive isotope of hydrogen, but whereas they use tritium-covered solar cells, he opted for an enhanced electrochemical cells, which makes the battery 1,000 times more powerful. So whereas City Labs NanoTritium™ batteries provide low power to devices like medical implants and various sensors, Kiselev’s version can be used to power large electronic devices and even cars.

I hope it's real because if this works, it will revolutionize all consumer electronics including cars.
 

ducks

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So people seem to be focused on the batteries. But can't you recycle them? Wouldn't that be cheaper than mining lithium anyway?
 

BlueScreen

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I was thinking of batteries and that got me to thinking of radioactive batteries used in pacemakers so I did a search to see if there have been any major advances and I found this: Ukrainian Scientist Creates Battery That Can Power Smartphones for 12 Years I hope it's real because if this works, it will revolutionize all consumer electronics including cars.
Interesting. Would have to be careful using radioactive products to power consumer electronics. Wonder how low the dose to the user would be? Also worth noting that contained beta decay leads to X-rays, so I'm interested what level of shielding would be required.
 

spirilis

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So people seem to be focused on the batteries. But can't you recycle them? Wouldn't that be cheaper than mining lithium anyway?
Used EV batts are usually employed for grid storage from what I've been reading. Not sure that Lithium tech is recycled en masse yet.

- - - Updated - - -

I was thinking of batteries and that got me to thinking of radioactive batteries used in pacemakers so I did a search to see if there have been any major advances and I found this: Ukrainian Scientist Creates Battery That Can Power Smartphones for 12 Years I hope it's real because if this works, it will revolutionize all consumer electronics including cars.
Betavoltaic tech is real but I doubt the cost will ever come down from the stratosphere.
 

spirilis

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My hope is nuclear fission SMRs, Small Modular Reactors become a popular choice in the next 10 years. NuScale is on track to deploy in Idaho by 2025 and others are mostly in the R&D phase... including some advancing the old EBR-II aka Integral Fast Reactor tech which involves consuming conventional nuclear waste (by transmuting 238U into 239Pu and fissioning that directly for power while transmuting more 238U in a closed loop cycle).

All the proposed SMR designs are meant to be walkaway, passively safe- no possibility of a Fukushima style scenario, and no western reactor can fail Chernobyl style anyway (that's a level of stupid reserved for the former Soviet Union).
 

Virtual ghost

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:) I normally call BS when I see things like rotting vegetation mentioned as a cause of greenhouse gases in articles. The water will be somewhere and stuff will grow and die in it. When the carbon in and carbon out are on that sort of time scale people are probably missing the point and getting a bit obsessed.

Agree, hydro can be okay where little environment is wrecked for it. But where does that much water flow where changing it has no major impact? Artificial storage dams for load balancing being a different thing.

That is why I said ... if you really want to push the issue.


However burning of the fossil fuels releases carbon atoms that were under ground for hundreds of millions of years. What means that they are fundamentally changing the biosphere through increased temperature, increased atmospheric turbulence, slight rises of sea level and ocean acidification. So they all have to be replace since the changes and further growth in global population are on the collision course and therefore fossil fuels have to be replaced completely with whatever we have (nuclear, green, geothermal, .... etc).
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Doctor Cringelord

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What isn't even close to crashing the whole biosphere through ocean acidification, changes in participation and moisture, changes of the planet's albedo ... etc. Hydro power isn't ideal but it is far from the worst that is on the table.

I’d rather have nuclear
 

spirilis

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A long time ago, the Sierra Club was pro-nuclear. Atoms Not Dams, was the campaign.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y0u1kecURpwC&pg=PT139&dq="atoms,+not+dams"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifocbJxojdAhViqlkKHbWMAi0Q6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q="atoms%2C%20not%20dams"&f=false
I make a compromise for hydro like I make a compromise for personal use of biomass. It's not really carbon neutral, because burning biomass is releasing CO2 a whole lot faster than nature would have in the wild. Likewise damming forests produces CH4 at substantial rate but, mother nature does this on her own from time to time anyhow...
 

BlueScreen

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I'd rather have nuclear
Nuclear has a lot of potential when the focus is on safety. Some newer generation tech is pretty good and not as much of a risk as the old nuclear plants.

It wouldn't be forever either, just to get us over the transition period with a carbon free base load while green tech improves and maybe even fusion arrives. That's ignoring any emissions associated with mining of course.
 

Virtual ghost

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I’d rather have nuclear


Yes, but I doubt that we will be able to produce enough energy just with it, especially if traffic as well turns to electricity. Since solar and wind are quite vulnerable to hurricanes and earthquakes.


On the other hand: Do you honestly think that it is wise or even possible to make the world where every country has it's own nuclear program ?
 

Virtual ghost

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offshore nuclear power plants. Offshoring Nuclear Plants


I am aware of the concept but this isn't going to work on global level. First: only very rich countries can build something like this. What means that they would have leverage against those that can't or aren't allowed to build this, since they can disconnect and move reactors at any time. Neither the countries of the world are in such a hurry to surrender themselves, especially if they have alternatives.

Second this is very unpractical option for powering anything that is more than 150 miles inland, since the electric resistance would "consume" most of the energy. Plus such power plants would be very vulnerable to hurricanes/storms and tsunamies that could wreck a few of those in a single day. While moving them away and waiting that hurricane passes would cause severe economic problems if this is the main energy source, plus don't even get me started on terrorism related issues. However the whole world needs power because otherwise you are crashing global economy or creating huge refugee waves.


This is nice add-on but it can't be the core of solution on global level.
 

spirilis

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I'm a fan of the self-contained modular reactor concept, where a reactor is delivered with a permanent fuel charge that lasts for e.g. 10-30 years and is replaced (old unit delivered back to mfr for decontamination and recycling). In theory that can reduce the weapons proliferation concerns and give most nations access to nuclear energy.
Not all of the Gen IV designs are based around this concept but IIRC a few are. Oklo comes to mind?
A point of relevance here to the original thread topic is modular nukes can offer a reliable energy oasis for EV charging and other things in remote locations, deserts for example. Solar is a popular choice for those spots but think about others like remote areas of Canada, Alaska, etc. (and nukes can load-follow to stand in when solar or wind is underperforming, unless batteries are truly more economical in those areas)
 

Coriolis

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I'm a fan of the self-contained modular reactor concept, where a reactor is delivered with a permanent fuel charge that lasts for e.g. 10-30 years and is replaced (old unit delivered back to mfr for decontamination and recycling).
How effective and are current methods of decontamination and recycling, and how do they impact the environment? Dealing with waste/residue of nuclear reactions has always been a challenge of nuclear energy.

Second this is very unpractical option for powering anything that is more than 150 miles inland, since the electric resistance would "consume" most of the energy. Plus such power plants would be very vulnerable to hurricanes/storms and tsunamies that could wreck a few of those in a single day. While moving them away and waiting that hurricane passes would cause severe economic problems if this is the main energy source, plus don't even get me started on terrorism related issues. However the whole world needs power because otherwise you are crashing global economy or creating huge refugee waves.
Yes. Also any contamination of the water is much harder to control than contamination of land, which at least tends to stay put.

Yes, but I doubt that we will be able to produce enough energy just with it, especially if traffic as well turns to electricity. Since solar and wind are quite vulnerable to hurricanes and earthquakes.
Improvement of battery technology would make it easier to store energy produced by wind/solar during windy and sunny times. In any case, I have always considered those sources good ways to augment an electric grid which also includes more traditional fuel-consuming or nuclear power plants, whose output is more consistent and less affected by environmental conditions.
 

Virtual ghost

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Improvement of battery technology would make it easier to store energy produced by wind/solar during windy and sunny times. In any case, I have always considered those sources good ways to augment an electric grid which also includes more traditional fuel-consuming or nuclear power plants, whose output is more consistent and less affected by environmental conditions.

Yes, this is exactly why I think it is wrong to throw nuclear energy out of the window. Especially since fossil fuels simply have to go and they are actually much more dangerous than nuclear energy. Since nuclear energy wouldn't increase the acidity of oceans that are mayor global food source or submerge coastal cities. Which is why I claim that in many parts of the world hydo will have to take a large part of the cake as well. Especially since nuclear energy is politically controversial.

We will need to maximize on almost everything we have in order to truly replace fossil fuels globally.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I never said it should be the core solution. However, I'd still take well-regulated nuclear over hydroelectric.
 
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