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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    What species would that be, possibly?
    Not surprisingly, some monkeys. In some species of macaques, like the Japanese macaque, different regional troops, while still being exactly the same species, display different patterns of conduct for how males and females behave. For example, in some areas, the male macaques involve themselves in infant care fairly extensively while the males in some other area's troops don't bother with infant care at all. Thus, it does somewhat resemble the kinds of confirmed, crude cultural differences that also exist between one tribe of chimps preferring stone tools unlike another that prefers wood.

    But is it certain that these are cultural differences in how sexes learn to behave? Is that quite the same thing as socially constructed gender? Not clearly, which is why I say we may have.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There's an enormous amount of diversity in the animal kingdom. There are great behavioral differences even between us and the other apes. Therefore, it's absurd when someone tells me about human mating behavior because of a study about North American gray tree frogs (that is an actual thing that happened). You can't just point to an animal doing something and declare what they do "natural" in some universal way. This approach is obviously set up for nothing but cherry picking, where one person picks and animal who's behavior matches their position, and then the other person picks an animal that contradicts it. Back and forth, accomplishing nothing.

    Furthermore, there's a question of when it is necessary. I'm often amused at people bypassing observed behavior in actual humans to try explaining by way of the behavior of some far removed animal. It actually transpires (has on this forum, in fact) that people will sometimes disregard the direct data on what humans are actually doing to argue that they somehow should be doing something else because some fucking shrew does it or something.

    Now, some attempts have been done to study broad trends in animals in the hopes of finding sexual characteristics that apply to human beings. That's a lot better, but it's not perfect. I repeat that the animal kingdom is vast and diverse, such that even an apparently broad trend across some subject animals may really be too small. It's process that remains under a fairly balanced amount of controversy even among the top scholars in the relevant fields.

    I guess the thing I'd really need to emphasize is the difference between an inherited trait (a trait that is the product of genes possessed by an organism at conception) and acquired traits (traits obtained through interaction within the environment, especially after birth). Not all animals are equal in terms of much they acquire traits. Some do it very little, some do a lot, and what's extremely important is that as far as we know at this time, no animal acquires traits more than humans. This would suggest that humans are the least subject to broad rules about genetically inherited behavior.

    On that note, sex and gender are different things. Sex, perhaps we can discuss, but gender, I'm convinced is so socially constructed (acquired, therefore) that there's little to be understood about human gender by looking at other animals. The only thing that strikes me as interesting there is if we find what appears to be socially constructed gender in another species (which we may have). There might actually be something to learn from that.
    I'll tell you because I think you could understand. I believe there may be some patterns in nature that exhibit universality, but I don't think they look like what most people think they do.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/20130...ture-converge/

    I am loathe to talk about such things though because people tend to misunderstand and use it to advance their particular view. If you would like to discuss it further feel free to PM me.
    "Ce que nous connaissons est peu de chose, ce que nous ignorons est immense."

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Listening View Post
    I'll tell you because I think you could understand. I believe there may be some patterns in nature that exhibit universality, but I don't think they look like what most people think they do.
    One of the few patterns that seems closest to universal, at least among mammals, is the drive and ferocity of mothers defending their young. Yet among humans, males are viewed as the protectors. It's unnatural, I tell you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One of the few patterns that seems closest to universal, at least among mammals, is the drive and ferocity of mothers defending their young. Yet among humans, males are viewed as the protectors. It's unnatural, I tell you.
    Human-like social skills in dogs? - PubMed - NCBI
    "Ce que nous connaissons est peu de chose, ce que nous ignorons est immense."

  5. #25
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Listening View Post
    I'll tell you because I think you could understand. I believe there may be some patterns in nature that exhibit universality, but I don't think they look like what most people think they do.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/20130...ture-converge/

    I am loathe to talk about such things though because people tend to misunderstand and use it to advance their particular view. If you would like to discuss it further feel free to PM me.
    So, close to string theory? Or related to? Interesting article. I love the idea that there is something greater that binds us into a chaotic order of maths patterns.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    So, close to string theory? Or related to? Interesting article. I love the idea that there is something greater that binds us into a chaotic order of maths patterns.
    what do you mean... idea?!

  7. #27
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    what do you mean... idea?!
    I mean just that. Ideas can be previously proven, it does not change that they are ideas. I can say I love the idea of science, astrology or love. I am a romantic. I live for ideas and notions.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    I mean just that. Ideas can be previously proven, it does not change that they are ideas. I can say I love the idea of science, astrology or love. I am a romantic. I live for ideas and notions.
    Maybe I should've written "idea"

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