Is psychopharmacology the scientific fraud of the century?

[Xann]

Is psychopharmacology the scientific fraud of the century? 64% of psychology experiments can't be reproduced - NaturalNews.com

(NaturalNews) An article in the journal Science casts doubt on how seriously the findings of any one psychological or other type of scientific study should be taken. In order to contribute to an ongoing debate about the reliability of psychological research, 270 researchers on five continents repeated 100 experiments that had been published in major psychological journals in 2008.

They were only able to replicate the original experiment's findings in 36 of 100 cases.

"The key caution that an average reader should take away is any one study is not going to be the last word," said lead researcher Brian Nosek of the University of Virginia. "Science is a process of uncertainty reduction, and no one study is almost ever a definitive result on its own."....

See full article here.

 

[Poki]

Is psychopharmacology the scientific fraud of the century? 64% of psychology experiments can't be reproduced - NaturalNews.com



See full article here.

Psychologists deal with an ever changing subject based on everything around it. To nail down something definitive is like trying to hit a moving target. Even if you hit it once and decide you need to aim 10 feet it may change speed and direction. On purpose or for a completely different reason. And to add to complexity, it may stay exactly the same

 

[Poki]

I don't know what theory or concepts as I suck at names, but the more stable something is the more likely the possibility it will change while at the same time the better odds you have at it staying the same. Kinda like is the cup half full or half empty. Just something that popped I my head.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

The drugs, even rather strong ones with serious side-effects, are prescribed without much testing or analysis. If you answer 10 questions regarding depression, you can get a bucket-full of pharmaceuticals prescribed. No blood test, no evaluation of diet and exercise, no recommendations from psychiatrists or counselors. It's bad medical practice that is the norm.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

The drugs, even rather strong ones with serious side-effects, are prescribed without much testing or analysis. If you answer 10 questions regarding depression, you can get a bucket-full of pharmaceuticals prescribed. No blood test, no evaluation of diet and exercise, no recommendations from psychiatrists or counselors. It's bad medical practice that is the norm.

Add to that the unfortunate fact that side effects are greatly more common than reported. I cannot say how I know this (NDA), I just do. It is a very profit driven business and killing people in the name of profit is common place.....

 

[magpie]

Holy shit, let's talk about psychiatric drugs. I've gotten so many I had to start flushing whole bottles down the toilet.

This is another way to check for what's going on with medications: Drug Lawsuits - Drugs, Dangerous Devices

 

[ceecee]

The drugs, even rather strong ones with serious side-effects, are prescribed without much testing or analysis. If you answer 10 questions regarding depression, you can get a bucket-full of pharmaceuticals prescribed. No blood test, no evaluation of diet and exercise, no recommendations from psychiatrists or counselors. It's bad medical practice that is the norm.

Yep.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

The drugs, even rather strong ones with serious side-effects, are prescribed without much testing or analysis. If you answer 10 questions regarding depression, you can get a bucket-full of pharmaceuticals prescribed. No blood test, no evaluation of diet and exercise, no recommendations from psychiatrists or counselors. It's bad medical practice that is the norm.

They are tested and analyzed...but because causation of mental illnesses are so complex scientists and doctors may not be able to tell you why they work or don't.

They can tell you how they work: blocking Seratonin, norepinephrine, etc but not necessarily how that translates to correcting said mental illness. It's also why the same drugs are prescribed for multiple illnesses.

Neurontin for seizures and bipolar, as an example.

I do agree a more thourough screening is necessary but often people don't want to take the harder path to health.

 

[Amargith]

I'd say in general our medical practices need an overhaul. More holistic treatment, less symptomatic/here's a pill treatment, plz. It's easier of course to just treat symptoms and not have to follow up on people instead of actually listening, doing a proper intake, coaching them to change their lifestyles if need be, following up on their progress and actually work together with the body/mind, instead of tricking it with a pill and calling it 'cured' - or at least swept under the rug. I'm not saying pills aren't a vital tool to be used in that, but they shouldn't be the end all, ever.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Holy shit, let's talk about psychiatric drugs. I've gotten so many I had to start flushing whole bottles down the toilet.

This is another way to check for what's going on with medications: Drug Lawsuits - Drugs, Dangerous Devices

Thanks for the link!

 

[Kas]

Firstly I haven’t found information about psychopharmacology in the linked article (or is it continuation somewhere?). It’s more about the point of medical/psychology studies and their value while the studies can’t be replicated and end up having different results.

It’s a good question, but actually making many similar test on the large groups in different places with different external factors is the basis of evidence based medicine. And it includes that many of studies can end up not being replicated- which obviously means that the primary test had less value (of course depending on analysis of how well were made these later studies and whether the necessary conditions which were the point of study were included). If it comes to medicines a lot of studies are required, of course still some things are not caught sometimes (like some side effects) sometimes it takes years to remove bad medicine from the market. But EBM is best proved system right now. Which doesn’t mean that I fully approve it, but I disapprove the part about difficulty of making any change in the medicine (even obvious, logical once), so it’s completely different subject and I see I already wrote much...

About psychopharmacology. Does it have side effects- yes. Does it influence the organism-yes. But it is sometimes necessary. Everything depends on the medicine of course e.g. the SSRI doesn’t have so many effects on the organism as neuroleptics. But both should be described when they are necessary. Obviously not when they are not.
The thought I have is that I’m not sure if GPs should be able to begin depression or anxiety therapy, because I know how the examination looks like and that people often end up taking BD for the long time. Maybe only temporarily with the referral to psychiatrist and then continuation of the advised treatment (?)

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

They are tested and analyzed...but because causation of mental illnesses are so complex scientists and doctors may not be able to tell you why they work or don't.

They can tell you how they work: blocking Seratonin, norepinephrine, etc but not necessarily how that translates to correcting said mental illness. It's also why the same drugs are prescribed for multiple illnesses.

Neurontin for seizures and bipolar, as an example.

I do agree a more thourough screening is necessary but often people don't want to take the harder path to health.

Some are tested. For anxiety and depression I only had ten questions to answer and the stuff they put me on was pretty harsh, so I've gone off of all of it except one for anxiety attacks, and am focusing on diet, exercise, yoga, etc. It just feels weird that it's not what the doctors prescribed, it's just my own common sense that I have to go by.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Some are tested. For anxiety and depression I only had ten questions to answer and the stuff they put me on was pretty harsh, so I've gone off of all of it except one for anxiety attacks, and am focusing on diet, exercise, yoga, etc. It just feels weird that it's not what the doctors prescribed, it's just my own common sense that I have to go by.

The medicine is tested but in your case the patient wasn't vetted properly.

This should have stricter measures but it gets tricky from a malpractice standpoint. I agree in theory. I just don't know the answer on how to apply this in real life.

Let's say, you go in. You voice complaints. You don't meet criteria for medication. You go out and commit some violence. Your records show you sought help but were denied medication for said affliction. Well, now you have a malpractice suit.

This is why medication is prescribed the way it is. I volunteered for the state in the foster care system and this is why pills are thrown at people. The whole system is set up to C.Y.A.

But how to do it differently? Either way there is collateral damage.

 

[ceecee]

They are tested and analyzed...but because causation of mental illnesses are so complex scientists and doctors may not be able to tell you why they work or don't.

They can tell you how they work: blocking Seratonin, norepinephrine, etc but not necessarily how that translates to correcting said mental illness. It's also why the same drugs are prescribed for multiple illnesses.

Neurontin for seizures and bipolar, as an example.

I do agree a more thourough screening is necessary but often people don't want to take the harder path to health.

I take Neurontin for spinal stenosis. It is the rare person who doesn't assume I have fibromialgia or seizures, although I had epilepsy as a child and I took dilantin and phenobarbital for that. All drugs are going to have possible side effects, possibility of not working or a possibility of working too well. It is the idea of - ok this drug can help but every person is different, every disease is different every dose is different. Let's start off with the lowest dose and see how that works. It's like that for nearly all drugs.

I don't like the throwing pills at it an nothing else attitude and that's not just directed at health care professionals. That's directed at patients too. I don't think GP's should be in the biz either. They should be referring patients and not prescribing anything until they're evaluated.

 

[Amargith]

It's sad though that an industry needed to maintain the welfare of our people is ruled by lawsuits and greed. It's kind of the opposite of where the focus should be.

I've experienced the same thing with health insurance, to the point where I now prefer the public health care system - it's slower due to the inevitable bureaucracy and systemic overload and they're not perfect in that they're still stuck in their specialisations too much, but at least they can take the time to help you and following up on the patient isn't going to bankrupt the patient or get them in trouble with their insurance company. And you're not tempted to lie to your doctor for fear that your insurance company might use the information they get through the doctor (who is loyal to them, not you) to get out of paying any of the bills. It's kinda nuts.

 

[magpie]

They are tested and analyzed...but because causation of mental illnesses are so complex scientists and doctors may not be able to tell you why they work or don't.

They can tell you how they work: blocking Seratonin, norepinephrine, etc but not necessarily how that translates to correcting said mental illness. It's also why the same drugs are prescribed for multiple illnesses.

Neurontin for seizures and bipolar, as an example.

I do agree a more thourough screening is necessary but often people don't want to take the harder path to health.

Why isn't every patient given a blood test to check seratonin and norepinephrine levels before receiving medication that blocks those, do you think?

In terms of blood tests, it's interesting because I have really high plasma norepinephrine levels on standing but slightly lower than normal ones lying down due to something called hyperadrenergic POTS. They discovered this doing an end endocrine lab. I can't have something to block my norepinephrine because it's not the problem itself, it's my body's correction mechanism that is keeping me from passing out due to other issues. So the root of the problem is low blood volume and I'm working on correcting that. Once I do everything else should fall back into balance. But wouldn't people with high norepinephrine levels that don't serve a physically useful purpose also show up in their blood?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Why isn't every patient given a blood test to check seratonin and norepinephrine levels before receiving medication that blocks those, do you think?

In terms of blood tests, it's interesting because I have really high plasma norepinephrine levels on standing but slightly lower than normal ones lying down due to something called hyperadrenergic POTS. They discovered this doing an end endocrine lab. I can't have something to block my norepinephrine because it's not the problem itself, it's my body's correction mechanism that is keeping me from passing out due to other issues. So the root of the problem is low blood volume and I'm working on correcting that. Once I do everything else should fall back into balance. But wouldn't people with high norepinephrine levels that don't serve a physically useful purpose also show up in their blood?

Interesting you say this because before I was diagnosed I had bloodwork done. I thought my excessive sleep may have been thyroid related. Nope. Bipolar. Tests came back normal. So, this is a great idea and one that couldn't hurt and could easily work toward both causations - physical/mental. Now, with healthcare accessible for everyone, it could be done easily.

I also agree with [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] that GP's should be removed from the process. By the way, my GP did refer me and didn't prescribe. Which may have been his preference. Either way, it is wise.

I also think that if you are prescribed medication you should also be seeing a psychologist as well as your psychiatrist. It takes both.

Mental illnesses are similar to drug addiction in the way that they can get treatment but they also need to learn new or disregard old coping mechanisms to function long term and reduce relapse. Drugs alone won't help for long term recovery.

 

[Amargith]

What is the exact difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist? I know that the latter can prescribe drugs and often has a more medical training but I thought they were just a kind of upgraded, specialised version of the first

 

[á´…eparted]

Why isn't every patient given a blood test to check seratonin and norepinephrine levels before receiving medication that blocks those, do you think?

In terms of blood tests, it's interesting because I have really high plasma norepinephrine levels on standing but slightly lower than normal ones lying down due to something called hyperadrenergic POTS. They discovered this doing an end endocrine lab. I can't have something to block my norepinephrine because it's not the problem itself, it's my body's correction mechanism that is keeping me from passing out due to other issues. So the root of the problem is low blood volume and I'm working on correcting that. Once I do everything else should fall back into balance. But wouldn't people with high norepinephrine levels that don't serve a physically useful purpose also show up in their blood?

It's not as simple as that.

Neurotransmitters in the body are not equivalent to neurotransmitters in the brain due to the blood brain barrier (they don't readily cross). Neurotransmitters serve multiple roles in the body. As an example, serotonin is responsible for our mood (part of it anyway). It's also responsible for intestional motility, among several other things unrelated to mood. What serotonin does, depends on it's location in the body. Generally, high or low levels in the body might be so in the brain as well, but that's not always the case.

You could test for neurotransmitters in the brain, but for that you'd have to do a spinal tap...

It might also not be the entire picture. It could very readily be receptor count (too high, too low, SNP that results in unusual binding affinity), and that's something that you could not easily test.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

What is the exact difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist? I know that the latter can prescribe drugs and often has a more medical training but I thought they were just a kind of upgraded, specialised version of the first

Psychiatrists are M.D.s, but do only limited work on behavior issues besides meds. They have limited training on the subject in comparison to psychologists. Psychologists are not MDs, and do address behavior by therapy.