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Obesity Cured in Mice

Betty Blue

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Thanks for quoting it again, but I've already read it. I still don't see the difference between your quote, the side effects of medications, and the side effects of obesity. All of these are *possible* side effects. You don't take less risks with ordinary medications than with a few days of fasting. Rewards come only with risks.

Idk maybe you are trolling me at this point, I can find it hard to tell with you guys as I tend to be a little too serious at times and take people as true to their word. Because who would really say that rewards come only, with risks?

However, I will say that it is clear from the amount of research and experience of others both scientific and anecdotal that it is much safer and healthier not to starve yourself at all full stop. In regards to the miracle drug being hailed in the Op, it will still be necessary for it to be a controlled diet, further testing will need to be done and quantities measured in combination with a varied and healthy diet. I highly doubt you will find any doctor that is willing to allow a patient to stop eating. The only exception I can think to this is if a patient is morbidly obese and suffering from perhaps heart failure and requires hospitalisation, then perhaps then may put them on a liquid nutrient diet only.

I don't advocate obesity or anorexia, both are (for the main part) eating disorders with awful underlying psychological problems and ramifications.
 
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Idk maybe you are trolling me at this point, I can find it hard to tell with you guys as I tend to be a little too serious at times and take people as true to their word. Because who would really say that rewards come only, with risks?
I'm not trolling you more than you are trying to troll me. You make a personal war here and I'm really not interested in it. I was always curious why does it make some people happy when they can insult others. Yes, rewards come with risks, Usually higher risk comes with higher possible reward. It may depend on what you call a "reward", with my interpretation I wouldn't be able to tell any that comes for free. Who would say that rewards come without risks?

However, I will say that it is clear from the amount of research and experience of others both scientific and anecdotal that it is much safer and healthier not to starve yourself at all full stop.
Starving does not equal fasting. You will find a huge amount of research and anecdotal evidence on the other side too. As I said healing today is unfortunately based on experiments and include a lot of guessing. Experiments succeed or not based on the highly unknown state of the individual.

I highly doubt you will find any doctor that is willing to allow a patient to stop eating. The only exception I can think to this is if a patient is morbidly obese and suffering from perhaps heart failure and requires hospitalisation, then perhaps then may put them on a liquid nutrient diet only.

I don't advocate obesity or anorexia, both are (for the main part) eating disorders with awful underlying psychological problems and ramifications.
Doctors know much less than you would expect. Doing a fast does not equal to advocating anorexia. Fasting advocates anorexia as much knife usage advocates self-hurting. If someone is unable to deal with his mental problems its already bad without adding anything on top of it.
 

Betty Blue

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Honestly I give up on this. It's just not worth my energy. I hope someone with more patience than I, can continue.
 
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Honestly I give up on this. It's just not worth my energy. I hope someone with more patience than I, can continue.
It's completely OK not to agree on something and listing pro and contra arguments. A lot of things can be learned that way. Where it went wrong is that you took the whole thing personally. It is pointless to take an online conversation that seriously. Maybe another problem is that I'm more convinced of the healing capabilities of fasting (as a result of my own experience) and online sources (like my opinion) are not reliable.

I simply couldn't accept your arguments where you are listing irrelevant-enough experiments (half-year long with low quality food and high stress, etc...) and mixing in other things like anorexia. I admit that fasting comes with risks but not with so extreme ones you mentioned. Relatively few people have anorexia despite the fact that a lot of religious people practice fasting on a regular basis. Someone who is vulnerable to mental problems should consider that and deal with it separately. Fasting for shorter periods and being able to stop any time you want reduces risks greatly. Fasting is not claimed to be a cure-all, but it is extremely powerful in eliminating some problems (including those related to obesity). One doesn't have to use fasting to keep a healthy weight. The problem is that getting rid of body weight can be difficult with "classic" methods. In this case fasting can help you to get rid of the problems that makes losing weigh extremely difficult or (nearly) impossible. After losing overweight and getting rid of the related problems its very easy to keep up a healthy body with quality food and training without limiting food intake in any way.

Obesity is a too complex problem where creating a complete argument on either side with pure logic doesn't work. However its easy to list obvious and easy-to-understand points that help measuring risks quite well. Its relatively easy to decide whether someone has a condition that makes fasting very risky or impossible, most people don't have such a condition. Its easy to see that being able to stop fasting makes the whole "experiment" and the trial of fasting even lower risk. While fasting you lose resources gradually and its easy to decide when to stop.

I wouldn't be afraid that this thread makes masses of people sick, anorexic, or something similar. Most people will never try fasting for many reasons. Fasting requires great effort just like any other method that deals with obesity and fasting seems too crazy, much less accepted method than going other routes like weigh loss pills and stuff. After losing weight one has to make a lot of effort to change bad eating habits and doing more physical activities to keep a healthy body. This is too much work for most people so most won't even start doing anything. Trying the latest pill is much comfortable and accepted. (Partly, this is why the evergreen weight-loss related product niche works in business.) If a new pill comes to the market it takes the life of a generation to statistically prove its safety, however sometimes it takes much less time to find out that it causes severe (sometimes permanent) damage to some.

Defeating overweight is obviously possible even in severe cases but it requires great effort. An obese person has only difficult and risky choices: remaining obese, getting rid of weigh with diet and exercise if possible (in most cases this would be enough, it just takes effort), trying pills and stuff like this. In my opinion fasting is a great addition to this list with relatively low risk and huge potential in eliminating obesity related diseases (and some of these like diabetes labelled as "incurable"). Its also a fast method that actually works.
I didn't have the intention to persuade anyone to go blindly on a fasting. I just wanted to give some info for determined people to be able to measure the risks and rewards. This is a method that works and the risks are much lower than one would expect them to be. The uncommon paths sometimes hide valuable treasure. Dealing with obesity is an area where mediocre methods and mediocre attitude suck.
 

Betty Blue

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No you misunderstand me. My concern is not personal, it is for the hoards of young people who will read your posts and see it as license/evidence that it is ok to stop eating for periods of time, this in turn is clinically proven to frequently result in anorexia/starvation/death. My issue is not with you personally but the irresponsible message you are putting on a forum in a weight loss thread.
 
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I don't misunderstand you. I see that you want to protect people but in my opinion you are not doing it the right way. Protecting young people by trying to hide the reality from them is not a winner strategy. You can not hide reality from them. In this world they will be fairly young when they see animal porn and similar weird things for the first time. The best you can do is helping in understanding things. If you constantly try to cover their eyes they will not trust you and will not ask you about weird things they discover. And they will discover a lot of weird things on their own for sure, the world is full of weird things. Children are much more capable and much smarter than most parents would expect. They need guidance in how to deal with things in the world, how to solve problems, how to take bold steps and calculated risks to make things better. This is the only way that leads to success, still, most people never understand this despite more than a decade of education and often being raised for more than two decades by parents. They are taught a set of trivially stupid rules, execution of simple logic based tasks, but often they are left without being able to think, solve problems, have their own opinion, and deal with shit in general. They miss even the most basic things, like being able to keep themselves healthy. If a child is obese, then the parents have already failed in a very important area. I think it's quite sad. People who know more about the world (including the weird and cruel things) and manage to deal with things can achieve much more. These people are much stronger, much more capable to make the world better and to give others (instead of taking away).

If we wanted to protect stupid people buy eliminating everything from the world that can be used buy stupid people to harm themselves, then the world would be a big empty room with soft rubber-lining. Don't misunderstand, I don't look down stupid people, it is only partly their fault that they lack the knowledge that could make them more successful, happy and capable. I was one of them a decade ago. Stupidity makes people miserable, they don't know where to start, how to solve problems and this makes them miserable and encourages them to do nothing or take stupid steps when they feel forced to take steps.

In my opinion most mental disorders (including anorexia) can be tracked down to lack of knowledge and negative self-lies (that are often unconscious and the result of lack of knowledge). Instead of eliminating powerful tools that can be used for good and bad, we should fight against general stupidity. Stupid people fail in too many aspects of life, you don't have to show them anything help them in that. The only solution to this is eliminating general stupiditiy. Several people got "healed" from anorexia. My bet would be that these people just acquired the right knowledge. Knowledge that gave them a normal self-image, not wanting to fit the body-image forced by media, normal methods to keep healthy body weight, etc... Your mind is very powerful, if you fill you head with shit then it will degrade your body too, you may lose hunger, you may become extremely hungry to get more joy, it can change your body chemistry in very weird ways (e.g.: stress).

Fasting is an extremely good weigh loss tool. *Weigh loss tool*, not constant weigh regulation tool for the long term. On weigh loss I mean getting rid of something bad that is already there, but keeping yourself far from that bad things (keeping healthy body and weigh) must definitely be handled in a different way. One does not have to starve to keep a fit body after getting rid of the crap that is already there.

What makes fasting even more amazing is being very good at resolving some complex "incurable" problems (hormones, insulin resistance, diabetes, blood pressure problems, ...). Its free, and natural. Its a waste to ignore such a potent healing method just because of general stupidity. This method doesn't deserve the huge negative speeches. It isn't at all as risky as many people says. Of course a stupid person can use it to starve herself into death. Stupid people may want to use it as a constant weigh regulation tool. Stupid people use other methods to destroy themselves if they don't know about fasting/starving but want to get rid of weight the easy stupid way that usually doesn't work. After losing weight and getting rid of the related problems there are natural ways to keep the results: put on some muscle, eat healthy food and be physically active. As I previously said, keeping a body healthy is much easier than getting rid of problems when the damage is already done. If some is stupid enough to constantly starve herself then she deserves the consequences. One can not achieve a constant slim and healthy body by bouncing between eating and fasting without physical activity. That has huge potential to deplete your body. Physical activity is extremely important, a physically inactive person is unhealthy by definition. Keeping a given body weight by constantly bouncing between eating and fasting without physical activity is as stupid as always walking half naked outside in freezing winter and constantly taking antibiotics and other crap to prevent illness. Even if you manage to regulate your weigh with the previously mentioned method, your body will be much less capable than a body that you keep up with eating healthy and doing the damn trainings. The human body constantly degrades without physical activity. Still, many stupid people want to lose weigh with stupid diets and calorie counting etc... Weakness, yoyo-effect, and other serious problems is their reward for their stupidity.
 

Betty Blue

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Please stop talking about fasting as a weight loss tool. It is only that under medical supervision. No-one should fast without proper consultation. Even when fasting certain nutrients should be included. Just not eating is not ok, for anyone.
 

Lark

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TL;DR

Does the cure involve not feeding the mice and then they are magically not fat anymore?
 

Tellenbach

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Obese Americans outnumber those who are only overweight – study

It estimated that 67.6 million Americans over the age of 25 were obese in 2012, and a further 65.2 million were overweight.

The NHANES included body mass index (BMI) information. A person with a BMI between 18.5 and 24.9 is considered normal, a BMI between 25 and 29.9 is considered overweight and a BMI over 30 is considered obese.

Women are more likely to be obese than overweight. Thirty seven percent qualify as obese, while 30 percent of them are overweight, meaning that two-thirds of American women over 25 are above normal weight. Men fare even worse, with 40 percent obese and 35 percent overweight, totaling to three-fourths of men being above a normal weight.

Average American woman now weighs as much as average 1960s man – CDC

It's the damn carbs people. Cut down on the carbs and eat more meat; I put much of the blame on the federal government for pushing carbs in their food pyramid. It should be very clear by now that carbs make us fat, but this message isn't being communicated to the public by the government. Also, this obesity "cure" can't come soon enough. We should just fortify everything with this herb.
 
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