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Eugenics: what do you think?

Do you support eugenics?


  • Total voters
    38

FDG

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I support eugenics as long as it´s applied to everyone except me and I get to decide who and how should be "eugenized". I guess most citizens with a tiny bit of common sense would feel the same. Thus I think eugenics can only be practiced in a form of dictatorship, in which case, again, I only support eugenics if I am the dictator.
 

Kullervo

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I support eugenics as long as it´s applied to everyone except me and I get to decide who and how should be "eugenized". I guess most citizens with a tiny bit of common sense would feel the same. Thus I think eugenics can only be practiced in a form of dictatorship, in which case, again, I only support eugenics if I am the dictator.

As anyone who had read my extract would have realised, we already practice eugenics in a number of ways. I am just suggesting making it more active and directed.

In my ideal world, paramilitary wouldn't be going around sterilising people - all that would happen is that is that you would need to prove your fitness, and that of your partner, to have recognised children. Reproduction is an investment on the part of society (who pays for maternity leave, and 5 years welfare?), so our interests need to be considered as well. I do not fear directed eugenics as long as it has the aim of reducing hereditary disease, and is strictly regulated. People should not be selected for or against on the basis of traits that won't affect the health of future generations.

The license system would grant citizenship rights for any children and the resulting benefits that come from that. I would hope that the thought of having children without a nationality and any public support would be enough to deter people who fail the tests from going ahead.
 

FDG

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As anyone who had read my extract would have realised, we already practice eugenics in a number of ways. I am just suggesting making it more active and directed.

And that´s what my reply is about.

In my ideal world, paramilitary wouldn't be going around sterilising people - all that would happen is that is that you would need to prove your fitness, and that of your partner, to have recognised children.

Fitness is a vague concept which is not objectively measurable. I may think you´re not fit because you´re not athletic enough, you may think I´m not fit because I´m not white and rich enough. Who is right?

You may argue similar limits exist f.e. for subsidied housing or government welfare, but neither shelter nor money are rights directly related to freely being able to use your own body, which is one of the tenants of modern liberal (in a personal rights sense) societies.

Reproduction is an investment on the part of society (who pays for maternity leave, and 5 years welfare?), so our interests need to be considered as well.

It´s more likely for society at large to zero on maternity leave rather than introduce large-scale eugenics projects. Barring extremely homogeneous societies of course, where basically there is no need for eugenics since everyone is more or less "the same".

People should not be selected for or against on the basis of traits that won't affect the health of future generations.

In a democracy, these parameters must be chosen from the population at large i.e. "what affects the health of future generations". If you are okay with such a completely arbitrary decisional process, great, but my prediction is that the largest majority of voters would not be okay.
 

FDG

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For the record: I would be okay with something like - if you have more than 3 kids in a 5 years timespan and you don´t have any reliable income, you won´t get government support if you have a 4th kid.
Just like you lose your welfare benefits if you don´t regularly apply for jobs.

The main point being: people should be free to dispose of their body (having kids is part of that), and be free to deal with the consequences.
 

Ghoul

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If we don't, the Chinese will (and are). We have many dysgenic practices and habbits destroying us such as multi-generation welfare families, a meaningless education system in general and lack of adherence to civic virtues. Another huge problem is if we put desirable traits onto paper you will find clear racial categories on the aggregate (demonstrating instances of superiority) and afterall we currently live in a far less ambitious and future-wary society.
 

Kullervo

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Fitness is a vague concept which is not objectively measurable. I may think you´re not fit because you´re not athletic enough, you may think I´m not fit because I´m not white and rich enough. Who is right?

I defined it for everybody when I was asked earlier.

I don't care how much money you make - and for the last bloody time, race is not related to skin colour. This has got to be one of the most persuasive myths around...

You may argue similar limits exist f.e. for subsidied housing or government welfare, but neither shelter nor money are rights directly related to freely being able to use your own body, which is one of the tenants of modern liberal (in a personal rights sense) societies.

You are only free to use your own body in ways that do not implicate other people. Liberals are selfish hedonists who want to be able to do whatever the fuck they want, and have everybody else pick up the pieces.

You are only free to have children under any conditions if you are prepared to forfeit any public support for them, which I doubt anybody will. Understand that I owe you nothing just for existing, so if you want something from me then my interests have to be considered as well. I want a good return on my investment. Why should I, or anybody else, should be forced to give money to genetically damaged couples any more than drug addicts or the morbidly obese?

It´s more likely for society at large to zero on maternity leave rather than introduce large-scale eugenics projects. Barring extremely homogeneous societies of course, where basically there is no need for eugenics since everyone is more or less "the same".

Eugenics projects should take place regardless of the ethnic makeup of a country. I do not want any project to become associated with selecting for traits such as blue eyes. Eugenics should be about increasing the general health of the population, not tailoring a certain, stereotypical appearance. That is a strawman often used to attack the idea itself.

In a democracy, these parameters must be chosen from the population at large i.e. "what affects the health of future generations". If you are okay with such a completely arbitrary decisional process, great, but my prediction is that the largest majority of voters would not be okay.

I don't support democracy. Rule by the majority is the root cause of the constantly decreasing quality of government. Most people are stupid and uninformed - what proportion of the voting population know what the branches of government are, what form of government and law we have, and have even a very basic idea of how they operate? I would say maybe around 15%. This means that 85% of voters are open to political manipulation of various sorts.

I don't care what "most voters" think when most of them can't even think for themselves. Democracy is responsible for a lot more besides the lack of a eugenics program.
 

FDG

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I don't support democracy.

Allright, then please take orders from me from now on because I´m stronger than you. Because that´s how non-democracy ends up being for the greatest majority of people.

Btw, I also think you can´t think for yourself and should be banned from voting...and perhaps reproducing.

The point being, that if you don´t support democracy then you must be thinking that you´re part of the "elite", and that´s an easy cop out. You should consider supporting non-democracy while being part of those not allowed to vote.
 

FDG

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You are only free to have children under any conditions if you are prepared to forfeit any public support for them,

That´s not eugenics and you know it.

If you want to rewrite your proposal as: past the X-th child, you will lose government support if you don´t have enough menas to feed him/her on the medium term, be my guest. But it doesn´t seem like you´re willing, you´re looking for something more radical.
 

SpankyMcFly

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Another article http://www.typologycentral.com/foru.../71369-nine-dies-father-hides-death-days.html about people having disabled child after disabled child has made me bang my head against a wall... Why doesn't somebody ask questions? Get involved? At least advise the couple to stop having children!

I am a firm believer in some sort of negative eugenics. Many people seem to believe you have a "right" to procreate as much as you have a right to free speech or to own property. I disagree, because in many cases the taxpayers end up having to support women's decisions to let somebody shoot their diseased seed into them, sometimes when they are well aware of the risks. Something ceases to be a right when it harms other people in some way, whether immidiately or in the future. Liberty is not the same as licence.

Anyway, I am interested to see what others' views are, and have also attached an extract on eugenics which explains the rationale well.


The Daddy State (tm) doesn't help by incentivizing and subsidizing "families" that might not otherwise have happened were it not for these benefits.

We are already moving towards soft eugenics. Ever watch that movie Gattaca? Gattaca (1997) - IMDb When I first heard about 23 and Me https://www.23andme.com/ I was reminded of that movie. In 20 years these tests will be the norm and it will start off voluntarily. I envision a day when it becomes a part of the mating ritual. In time though I foresee government getting involved and "mandating" via subsidies/incentives. They have been doing something similar with blood testing for decades Marriage License Laws Blood Test Requirements > by State

A little more than 5 years ago these tests were a grand. Now they are down to $100. Heck you can buy a basic paternity test at Wal-Mart for $79. Unless you live in France where it's illegal, 1 year prison & 15k euro fine. Poor bastards.
 

Totenkindly

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The USA gave the world Eugenics and it was taken by the Germans and refined into the holocaust.

And what? The gun toting Americans want to give us Eugenics again?

What do you take us for?

SilentMusings is not American.
So America is not "giving anyone anything."


In the 1930s countries besides the US and Germany practiced eugenics, and the idea actually originated in England with Francis Galton. You may to interested to know that Sweden, that bastion of socialism, had a eugenics program up until the 1970s. Ouch.

I take you for a washed up former hippie who hasn't figured out that times have changed.


Mole is Australian.
Do they have hippies in Australia?
 

prplchknz

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That´s not eugenics and you know it.

If you want to rewrite your proposal as: past the X-th child, you will lose government support if you don´t have enough menas to feed him/her on the medium term, be my guest. But it doesn´t seem like you´re willing, you´re looking for something more radical.

cutting off support after 3rd child i'm all for.
 

Raffaella

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You are only free to have children under any conditions if you are prepared to forfeit any public support for them, which I doubt anybody will. Understand that I owe you nothing just for existing, so if you want something from me then my interests have to be considered as well. I want a good return on my investment. Why should I, or anybody else, should be forced to give money to genetically damaged couples any more than drug addicts or the morbidly obese?

Aside from costing tax-payers, in what other ways are they harming society?
 

Totenkindly

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Well, one problem is that it doesn't take much for exclusions aimed at certain groups in society to be generated simply by the pecadilloes of the ruling party/leaders. No one wants others to abuse the system and for themselves to have to take an "unreasonable" share of the load in a community situation; yet at the same time reaping any benefit within a community scenario means accepting some level of behavior and disagreement that you don't necessarily prefer. It lives in that ambiguous gray area.

So in the US, we've had a large smackdown on the tobacco industry in the last few decades, due to the health toll and financial cost of related health care... and now we're arguing (out of all things) over birth control costs. :eyeroll: But mandatory genetic planning doesn't seem to be on the table, because our cultural mentality doesn't appreciate that amount of intrusion into what is considered "private space" (the whole birth control debate aside).

Genetic testing for some things is not a simple matter. I didn't know I was a cystic fibrosis carrier until our second child was born with it, and we chose not to have any more biological children at that point. Since the rate of incidence is only 1 in 400 marriages allows for a typical recessive scenario (out of four kids, 1 positive, 2 carriers, 1 negative), people typically do not get the genetic test unless there's some reported appearance of the syndrome in either family.
 

Qlip

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I don't feel compelled to vote because, to my relief, this isn't a viable enough subject to be controversial.

But, history has shown that a species survival is best served with having a wide generic diversity. It keeps us flexible and more able to deal with unexpected events: environmental changes, disease, new resource allocations, etc. Human leaders have never been smart enough to deserve full control of the capabilities needed to see over their own survival.

Setting a precedent of putting our genetics in the hands of the state is dangerous, and for the moment, impractical.
 

prplchknz

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I don't want eugenics if it was practice in the 80s i might not have been alive today. and yeah sometimes I think that be nice, realistically i dunno all I know is i'm not having kids.
 

five sounds

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you can't trust people to make decisions like that for others. no.

information is good though, so that people can make educated decisions about reproducing.
 

Bush

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So are we talking concept, implementation, or both?

Questions: How much, exactly, do we owe it to society to raise healthy children? How much does society owe us for having them in the first place?

May be a question of a balance between fostering personal happiness versus dragging everyone else down. As others have said, providing information to the parents-to-be is the best, most balanced option.

Eugenics in implementation--well. The implementation could very well lead to a disastrous level of corruption, even if the concept is sound. (Note the "if." For the love of God Lord Jesus Christ in heaven, please note the "if.")
Thanks to the term eugenics, I always remember that the name Eugenie means "well-born".
I didn't know that. Now I'll remember it, too. :hifive:
 

Kullervo

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Allright, then please take orders from me from now on because I´m stronger than you. Because that´s how non-democracy ends up being for the greatest majority of people.

How many of the greatest dictators and absolute monarchs have had ripped abs? And being physically strong does not preclude poor genetic quality. Their body was not what made the aforementioned people famous, and it never will be again now we have weapons capable of killing the strongest man instantly. Argument refuted.

Btw, I also think you can´t think for yourself and should be banned from voting...and perhaps reproducing.

Understanding the various political positions and then rejecting them requires conscious thought. You dislike me because i have come to a different conclusion.

The point being, that if you don´t support democracy then you must be thinking that you´re part of the "elite", and that´s an easy cop out. You should consider supporting non-democracy while being part of those not allowed to vote.

I am, and I would be one of the people allowed to vote, for the reasons I have outlined earlier in the thread.
 

Bush

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and I would be one of the people allowed to vote, for the reasons I have outlined earlier in the thread.
I don't see these reasons explicitly spelled out in the thread.

Not meant sardonically. I literally don't see them.

Can you spell them out or quote them?
 
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