Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

[Qlip]

I have a lot of trouble deciding what is best because there are a couple of things that are true, doctors are way too focused on diagnosing and fixing symptoms not prevention and are too arrogant to acknowledge helpful things outside of their experience and general populace aren't always that bright.

I am utterly convinced that general health in the U.S. would be improved by 90% if people just exercised and took on a healthy diet. I am convinced that a lot of weird-ass maladies not generally correlated with obesity and nutrition would suddenly disappear, things that are often treated after-the-fact with pharma. I've decided this after observing my own health after losing some significant weight and eating kinda healthier.

If this is a secret, or at least not broadcasted by the medical community, it does make me wonder what other things we don't understand because the medical field as a whole doesn't put emphasis on it. This, of course, can lead into a crazy ass bias-confirmed rabbit hole for certain types of people.

 

[prplchknz]

I have a lot of trouble deciding what is best because there are a couple of things that are true, doctors are way too focused on diagnosing and fixing symptoms not prevention and are too arrogant to acknowledge helpful things outside of their experience and general populace aren't always that bright.

I am utterly convinced that general health in the U.S. would be improved by 90% if people just exercised and took on a healthy diet. I am convinced that a lot of weird-ass maladies not generally correlated with obesity and nutrition would suddenly disappear, things that are often treated after-the-fact with pharma. I've decided this after observing my own health after losing some significant weight and eating kinda healthier.

If this is a secret, or at least not broadcasted by the medical community, it does make me wonder what other things we don't understand because the medical field as a whole doesn't put emphasis on it. This, of course, can lead into a crazy ass bias-confirmed rabbit hole for certain types of people.

of course this is what my mom believes that a lot of the diseases that plague our society such as obesity, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, essentially anything that has an enviromental factor can be reduced greatly if people just exercised ate healthy and went for regular screenings (because some of the stuff is genetic and the diet and exercise isn't gonna always be 100%) things would be caught earlier, higher chance of being cured or arrested. and the diet and exercise would keep a lot of the stuff at bay. that being said people are different, so i mean a healthy diet is gonna be healthy no matter who you are. I've learned that if I take out carbs or protein out of my diet I start feeling like i'm gonna faint whenever I stand, while some people do fine with very little to no carbs, that being said everyone needs fruits and vegetables. for me fruit with a piece of toast with peanutbutter, or a bread and some protein for breakfast + a chef salad for lunch (all the deli meats and cheeses in the fridge i have plus the lettuce and vegetables and hard boiled egg, croutons) I know this isn't a low calorie salad/a sandwhich+ a meat a steamed vegetable and potato and maybe some nice bread (depending on if I ate the salad or sandwhich for lunch) that's when I feel the best. I'm bad at doing this. though. and some fruit at random points in the day is also good.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I do not have a problem with vaccinations. If they are necessary, as these two are. I do not consider vaccinations medication, per se.

 

[Tellenbach]

Aboriginal peoples around the world don't get heart disease despite eating lots of meat. Meat, cholesterol, and saturated fats aren't the problem. The problem is lack of nutrition due to ingesting large quantities of processed foods (mostly carbs). The sterilization process destroys many of the B-vitamins that prevent heart disease. Since cereal companies started fortifying cereals and breads with folic acid, heart disease rates have dropped 50% in the past 30 years. I doubt most doctors know this simple fact.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

processed foods. That's what it is. Saturated fat is healthy but processed food is almost like eating soap in my opinion.

 

[Raffaella]

Aboriginal peoples around the world don't get heart disease despite eating lots of meat. Meat, cholesterol, and saturated fats aren't the problem. The problem is lack of nutrition due to ingesting large quantities of processed foods (mostly carbs).

Incorrect.

Native Australians are two times more likely to die of heart disease. It's such an issue that there is a campaign to improve morbidity and mortality of the native people.

The problem is lack of nutrition due to ingesting large quantities of processed foods (mostly carbs).

Of course, hence the obesity epidemic.

 

[Tellenbach]

Native Australians are two times more likely to die of heart disease. It's such an issue that there is a campaign to improve morbidity and mortality of the native people.

Thanks for the correction. I had assumed that native peoples would eschew the conveniences of modern society, including the processed foods, but that is not the case with native Australians.

Cardiovascular disease and its associated risk factors in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples

I brought up the example of native peoples because some of them like the Masai of Africa and the Eskimos of Greenland have avoided eating processed foods. They have maintained the traditional diet. The native Australians have not done so.

For Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, this includes the change
from a ‘traditional’ diet that was fibre-rich, high in protein and low in saturated fat to a diet
that is high in fat and refined sugars.

Over half of the Indigenous population aged 18 years and over were overweight, with slightly over half of
these being obese. Indigenous Australians were more likely to be overweight and much more likely to be obese than non-Indigenous Australians.

This pretty much proves my point. Native peoples who maintain their traditional diet don't get heart disease, but native people who've adopted the modern diet suffer greatly. Btw, Australians are more obese than even Americans, so for native Australians to be even more obese means they're eating tons of processed carbs.

 

[Chthonic]

Native Australians are two times more likely to die of heart disease. It's such an issue that there is a campaign to improve morbidity and mortality of the native people.

Thats because the ones that have been told they can't live in humpies and harvest native animals are now living on sugar and white flour. Not exactly a problem caused by their native lifestyle. More a problem caused by being forced to adopt ours. I know a man, with a dog...who just happens to work with a government program designed to integrate aborigines into modern society. This chap was quite forthcoming and entirely sympathetic to the aborginals who can't see the point in being forced to speak English and work a job just so they can be as miserable as the rest of us. They've got a point. Very few tribes are able to live according to their native ways anymore, instead they are educated in our ways and suffer all the same problems we do but to a greater extent because they live mostly on the poverty line. Fresh fruit and vegetables are pretty expensive to buy in central Australia, I don't know of many food farms out there.

 

[Raffaella]

Thats because the ones that have been told they can't live in humpies and harvest native animals are now living on sugar and white flour. Not exactly a problem caused by their native lifestyle. More a problem caused by being forced to adopt ours. I know a man, with a dog...who just happens to work with a government program designed to integrate aborigines into modern society. This chap was quite forthcoming and entirely sympathetic to the aborginals who can't see the point in being forced to speak English and work a job just so they can be as miserable as the rest of us. They've got a point. Very few tribes are able to live according to their native ways anymore, instead they are educated in our ways and suffer all the same problems we do but to a greater extent because they live mostly on the poverty line. Fresh fruit and vegetables are pretty expensive to buy in central Australia, I don't know of many food farms out there.

Yeah, I was just nitpicking Tellenbach's post. You're preaching to the converted

 

[Tellenbach]

Can Ancient Herbs Treat Cancer?

Sixty-two percent of chemotherapy drugs come from natural products, and plants have been the basis of almost every new class of medication

For Bionovo, the drug discovery and development company in Emeryville, Calif., that's behind BZL101, there's hope too. The trial is the first FDA-validated clinical study of a potential cancer drug derived from a Chinese medicinal herb

Drug companies are sending researchers to the jungles of the Amazon in search of medicines all the time.

Amazon divulges malaria antidote

One of the most potent anti-malarial chemicals known to science has been found in the Amazon rainforest, unnoticed by the indigenous people who often fall victim to the disease.

University researchers identified an antibiotic peptide complex called coronamycin being produced by fungus-like bacteria growing inside a little-known tree-hugging vine.

Initial tests suggested that, molecule-for-molecule, coronamycin was more effective against the malaria parasite than chloroquin, the main anti-malarial agent that is becoming increasingly obsolete as the parasite develops resistance against it.

The bias against "natural" treatments is simply ignorance. Chemicals are chemicals. Sometimes, you get lucky with a natural chemical and sometimes, you come up with synthetics that work.

 

[Thalassa]

lolz if you didn't want to argue the topic, I would think you wouldn't bother posting at all.

Natural medicine preys on people just as much and if not more than modern medicine. All the damn time. Completely using false facts, misleading people, abusing passive-aggressive-and-technically-politically-correct tones to market and sell and sell and sell some more to people who genuinely want to do the right things for their body and buy into advertising because that's what it's designed to make people do.

And, unlike doctors, no one needs to go through any real training to become a provider of natural medicine. If having an optimistic view of doctors is naive and simplistic, then that's fine with me. Without my education and training I could have easily seen myself throwing away hundreds of dollars on snake oils, and even with it I've been duped by natural medicine's 'miracle' bullshit quite an embarrassingly-many times. So, yeah, I'm not nearly as optimistic about it, and I think it needs to be very closely scrutinized before beginning any natural remedy.

My mom went to nursing school, my cousin is a nurse, and my uncle was a medic in the army and none of them take your awed tone towards doctors (it's a soap opera cliche, the naive nurse seduced by the doctor) and none of them are as hostile to natural medicine as you are, in fact my mother and uncle are well versed on nutrition. Two of my sisters additionally have Bachelors degrees in Biology and also promote natural wellness.

I have been reasonable about the pros and cons of both sides, honestly your bias to Western medicine is blinding you. You will grow out of it. I think you are just an overly worshipful and enthusiastic nursing student. You are not that we'll inforned, you didn't even know that DDS stands for Doctor of Dental Surgery.

While I agree with you about vaccines, I don't about preventative medicine in the slightest, and I find your trust of the health care industry borderline alarming.

 

[kyuuei]

My mom went to nursing school, my cousin is a nurse, and my uncle was a medic in the army and none of them take your awed tone towards doctors (it's a soap opera cliche, the naive nurse seduced by the doctor) and none of them are as hostile to natural medicine as you are, in fact my mother and uncle are well versed on nutrition. Two of my sisters additionally have Bachelors degrees in Biology and also promote natural wellness.

I'm not really having a discussion with your mother and uncle and cousin now am I? I'm talking to this forum. I'm not hostile towards natural medicine, and I use it all the time. I'm hostile towards how easily people accept SOME natural medicine being legit as ALL natural medicine being legit. Which is annoying at best, and actually causing a lot of harm to community health overall.

You aren't reading any of my points at all. I'm saying optimistic things about doctors because they are true. They are NOT true for every doctor, nor every practice.

No one would put as much trust into doctors as a bunch of hippy people are putting into natural medicine. Someone reads a quasi-real-looking article on buzzfeed about how GMOs are bad for you, and bam, suddenly they're bad for you. No research needed, no looking at both sides of the spectrum, let's make farmers and doctors and everyone bad guys for supplying you with NECESSARY food.

I think a lot of these food trends are easy ways out of real objective research and thought. Gluten free? Even if the generous estimates of half the population are true... That means there are many people out there avoiding gluten for no reason at all, spending money on unnecessary 'medicine' in the form of gluten-free food. People decided to avoid dairy, because fuck it, vegans don't like it and say it's bad for you, so let's quit it. I see it a lot, and I've tried some of it and the more I'm talking to people trying it the more I realized what bullshit was being fed to people for no reason. They were quitting it in the name of health, not in the name of what is truly healthy for them

I have been reasonable about the pros and cons of both sides, honestly your bias to Western medicine is blinding you. You will grow out of it. I think you are just an overly worshipful and enthusiastic nursing student. You are not that we'll inforned, you didn't even know that DDS stands for Doctor of Dental Surgery.

I don't have my dentist making my medical decisions is what I meant. YES they have the license or whatever, but there are also 'doctors' of History, and art, and theater, and I don't go to them when I'm sick. I mean a doctor trained in dealing with illness, and doctors trained in health. Dentists specialize. There's nothing wrong with that, we need that, but they aren't magically geniuses at health and well being just because they became a doctor.

While I agree with you about vaccines, I don't about preventative medicine in the slightest, and I find your trust of the health care industry borderline alarming.

Again, you're illustrating my point entirely. Me posting ANYTHING optimistic about doctors and modern medicine is appalling and alarming and warrants over-reactive comments on my supposed education status, and such and on and on.

Yet when it comes to super alarming, proven issues with natural medicine, it's all dismissively, "Oh, yeah, that vaccine stuff I agree with but still.." The tone itself you're exuding is exactly what I'm calling attention towards.

There are just as many bad, nasty, rotten spots in natural medicine out to make money, sell snake oils, and put band aids on shit as there is modern medicine, and yet people are touting one around as if it's some brilliant movement back into the enlightened stone ages while the other is complete filth and garbage with some nice people who know what they're doing trying to desperately cling to a failing system.

I'm pointing out that for every bad point you make on modern medicine, I can put one on natural medicine, and both of them have good, great, fantastic practitioners and terrible, ugly, money-hungry ones.

I prefer, overall, modern medical practices because I like the concept of washing your hands, sanitation, developing food that everyone can eat because it's proven people live longer when they have food, etc. etc. Those are modern concepts I agree with and support IN general. I don't like the seemingly objective but just as emotionally driven moral-high-horse people touting around natural medicine like it's some new bible of medicine we lost in a cave somewhere and just discovered.


Morals are not medicine. Those are society driven, subjective things. It may be more moral to, for example, eat whole foods vs GMO foods or whatever. I don't know if it is or not, and I'd argue it isn't. But trying to turn that into science that just isn't there doesn't make it more objective. These are things being argued about for a reason--the science isn't there. Vaccines have hundreds of years and science backing it up, tons of research and tons more of modern recent research, and people STILL don't believe that shit works and are scared it'll fuck you up and fear monger anyone that thinks otherwise. I don't expect GMO debates, or many others, to be objective for a very very long time.

 

[Adam]

My mom went to nursing school, my cousin is a nurse, and my uncle was a medic in the army and none of them take your awed tone towards doctors (it's a soap opera cliche, the naive nurse seduced by the doctor) and none of them are as hostile to natural medicine as you are, in fact my mother and uncle are well versed on nutrition. Two of my sisters additionally have Bachelors degrees in Biology and also promote natural wellness.

Natural medicine becomes Western medicine once enough evidence of the alleged healing effects has been gathered using the scientific method and an affirmative consensus is established. A bias for Western medicine is simply a bias for the modern scientific method. While I agree that one shouldn't be so rash as to completely dismiss all other remedies than those whose beneficial effects are supported by a scientific consensus, this restraint should only be applied in cases where no consensus exists due to lack of study or controversy.

 

[Tellenbach]

If the alternative medicine doesn't have any harmful side-effects, what's the harm? I took 12 to 14 grams of Vitamin C (1 gram/hour) for my cold on the testimony of some people on a Vitamin C forum; it works. Vit C killed the cold on day 1. We're in the flu/cold season right now. I'd recommend that everyone take massive doses of Vitamin C the next time they notice the first symptoms of a cold. Report back.

 

[Coriolis]

Natural medicine becomes Western medicine once enough evidence of the alleged healing effects has been gathered using the scientific method and an affirmative consensus is established. A bias for Western medicine is simply a bias for the modern scientific method. While I agree that one shouldn't be so rash as to completely dismiss all other remedies than those whose beneficial effects are supported by a scientific consensus, this restraint should only be applied in cases where no consensus exists due to lack of study or controversy.

This is an important distinction. People tend to trust doctors because there is an established vetting process, both for themselves as medical professionals, as well as for their methods and treatments. That doesn't mean they are infallible, or that modern medical techniques have no side effects or drawbacks, some of which may not yet be understood. What it does mean is that the patient can in general have a higher confidence level in this sort of medicine vs. older traditional methods that have not undergone systematic and documented evaluation.

That being said, there is no substitute for a consumer of medical treatment (i.e. patient) doing his/her own homework, the better to understand his/her condition and the treatment options available. Even if our doctor is knowledgeable and trustworthy, an informed patient is a more engaged and responsible patient. Ignorance can only hurt us. I have gone against medical advice on several occasions after doing my own research, but in these cases have felt a real "burden of proof" to be sure of my own conclusions before taking this step.

Unfortunately conventional doctors are sometimes guided not simply by science, but also by other factors like economics or the litigiousness of modern society. This can affect prescribed treatment and possibly even stated diagnoses, either in the interests of increasing income, or in order to avoid lawsuits (defensive medicine).

As for the harm in using an "alternative remedy" with no side effects: if it does not cure the problem, it might delay the patient from applying a remedy that will, while the condition becomes worse. Probably not a big deal for something like athlete's foot, but can make a big difference for more life-threatening conditions.

 

[Tellenbach]

As for the harm in using an "alternative remedy" with no side effects: if it does not cure the problem, it might delay the patient from applying a remedy that will, while the condition becomes worse. Probably not a big deal for something like athlete's foot, but can make a big difference for more life-threatening conditions.

Great point and I've considered it, but how many medical conditions are really "cured" using conventional medications? Doctors prescribe statins to treat cholesterol but it doesn't cure the condition. They prescribe a host of hypertension medications to control it but none of them are cures. Some cancers are "cured" but there are many more such as pancreatic cancer which have a very low cure rate. Arthritis isn't cured; eczema isn't cured; psoriasis isn't cured; irregular heartbeats isn't cured; diabetes isn't cured. They really can't cure colds or the flu; they merely seek to reduce the severity of the symptoms.

For infections, physical injuries, heart attacks and other catastrophic injuries, conventional medicine is the best, but for the chronic conditions....you really can't go wrong with seeking alternative treatments. In fact, I'd say that there are many alternative treatments that are as good and even better than conventional treatments.

 

[Coriolis]

Great point and I've considered it, but how many medical conditions are really "cured" using conventional medications? Doctors prescribe statins to treat cholesterol but it doesn't cure the condition. They prescribe a host of hypertension medications to control it but none of them are cures. Some cancers are "cured" but there are many more such as pancreatic cancer which have a very low cure rate. Arthritis isn't cured; eczema isn't cured; psoriasis isn't cured; irregular heartbeats isn't cured; diabetes isn't cured. They really can't cure colds or the flu; they merely seek to reduce the severity of the symptoms.

For infections, physical injuries, heart attacks and other catastrophic injuries, conventional medicine is the best, but for the chronic conditions....you really can't go wrong with seeking alternative treatments. In fact, I'd say that there are many alternative treatments that are as good and even better than conventional treatments.

Anyone with a chronic condition who dismisses conventional treatments is playing Russian roulette with his/her health. If an alternative treatment is better, it should be shown to be better through demonstrated and documented results, and not assumed to be better simply because it is not conventional. The chronic (not acute) nature of the condition should give the patient plenty of time to do this homework. The patient should understand the alternatives, and make an informed choice.

 

[Thalassa]

Natural medicine becomes Western medicine once enough evidence of the alleged healing effects has been gathered using the scientific method and an affirmative consensus is established. A bias for Western medicine is simply a bias for the modern scientific method. While I agree that one shouldn't be so rash as to completely dismiss all other remedies than those whose beneficial effects are supported by a scientific consensus, this restraint should only be applied in cases where no consensus exists due to lack of study or controversy.

That's a bit naive, given our FDA approving garbage like pink slime and other food additives that are banned in Western Europe and Japan (there are lists of chemicals only legal for consumption in the U.S. and no other first world nation). Also bear in mind that some natural medicine would take millions away from the health care industry, you can easily find academic essays online doctors wrote about how modern medicine making people sicker and against chemotherapy.

I am careful to cross reference multiple sources, but I don’t necessarily think FDA approval is necessary if I have checked multiple references and there are little to no side effects. If I needed surgery after a horrific accident or something along those lines, I am all for Western medicine, I am not a religious extremist, but I don’t go run to the doctor in the way some minions have been conditioned to do so that they can take more pills and spend more money, you don't need antibiotics or Accutane to stop your acne, just stop eating dairy and refined sugar, easy peasy.

 

[Thalassa]

If the alternative medicine doesn't have any harmful side-effects, what's the harm? I took 12 to 14 grams of Vitamin C (1 gram/hour) for my cold on the testimony of some people on a Vitamin C forum; it works. Vit C killed the cold on day 1. We're in the flu/cold season right now. I'd recommend that everyone take massive doses of Vitamin C the next time they notice the first symptoms of a cold. Report back.

Garlic and apple cider vinegar as well. I can't believe the number of people I have met who think a substance like Sudafed actually helps their cold, many people are so confused they think this garbage used to treat symptoms will actually heal their cold, when they could cheaply and safely just eat certain foods or drink teas or take a non toxic supplement.

 

[Thalassa]

Great point and I've considered it, but how many medical conditions are really "cured" using conventional medications? Doctors prescribe statins to treat cholesterol but it doesn't cure the condition. They prescribe a host of hypertension medications to control it but none of them are cures. Some cancers are "cured" but there are many more such as pancreatic cancer which have a very low cure rate. Arthritis isn't cured; eczema isn't cured; psoriasis isn't cured; irregular heartbeats isn't cured; diabetes isn't cured. They really can't cure colds or the flu; they merely seek to reduce the severity of the symptoms.

For infections, physical injuries, heart attacks and other catastrophic injuries, conventional medicine is the best, but for the chronic conditions....you really can't go wrong with seeking alternative treatments. In fact, I'd say that there are many alternative treatments that are as good and even better than conventional treatments.

I saw a troubling article about magnesium deficiency and how doctors often just treat the symptoms. So if you had elevated blood pressure due to magnesium deficiency, doctor gives you blood pressure medicine instead, which ends up not treating your deficiency, and it gets worse, so your cholesterol climbs, next thing you know you are on several medication I have a myriad of health problems. ...when you just needed a magnesium supplement.

In related news, doctors recommending large amounts of calcium have now been disputed because of magnesium deficiency, leading to more cases of osteoporosis.

It's all about having a good doctor who incorporates a lot of nutrition and natural treatment into the program, because many will just prescribe pharmaceuticals.