Black holes

[jixmixfix]

So from my understanding our milky way galaxy contain millions of these black holes, but no body knows what their function is in the universe. Since black holes are formed through the death of dying stars, the gravity that is omitted out of these black holes is so strong that even light gets sucks into it. After reading about the big bang theory, and how it happened 13.4 billion years ago I came to a possible theory.
Since black holes serve to condense matter into small sizes and form and combine with other black holes, would it mean that the black hole is trying to transform our solor system into the tiny bit of condense matter that was once formed before the big bang? If you think about it in about 5 billion years our star will die and might possibly turn into a black hole or get sucked into one. As well as many other stars throughout our galaxy. Is this the cycle of the universe? Do we all get sucked into a tiny bit of condense matter and then explode once again in a big bang, like the one that happen 13.4 billion years ago? I'm not an astrophysicist but this theory makes sense to me, what do you guys think?

 

[AOA]

Well, when they ask what's *inside* the black hole, the answer most of astronomy professors give is "I don't know". We don't know what there is on the other side of the black hole, although various people have suggested the so-called *alternate dimension* (or, the parallel universe, per se). For a start, you don't even know what black holes are exactly, because they suck light, and the only evidence you can yield that indicate if there is *one* (hypothetically), is the way matter behaves around *it* (the unknown, concluded as the black hole). I don't know if this is the cycle of the universe, though. There are many unanswered questions, and again - black holes are still largely theory. When the universe came about with the big bang, it was said that it expanded so quickly, they have to create a new unit of time for it (the planck time). Basically, the universe went from smaller than an atom to practically the size we *observe* the universe as it is in just (approximately) 5 to 7 planck times. [1 planck time = 5.39 x 10^-44s.] - that's beyond belief. Gives you an estimation of what Infinity really is. Even now, the universe is accelerating at that estimated rate. This means, in my opinion, the universe is practically gone to eternity, and there is no force (black hole, or whatsoever) that'll affect it. If a black hole were to have any chance, each black hole will have to come from stars many billions (probably trillions) of times the mass of the Sun, which would take a farther millions (or billions) of years, and then those supermassive black holes will have to travel across the galaxy (across to other galaxies, maybe) to join together to get large enough to propogate greater damage. I think we may get sucked by a black hole. There's one super massive black hole in the center of our galaxy that's sucking all the stellar systems toward it, but it's also said we don't know what'll happen when we get near it. It's called the Event Horizon. Time also slows down as you get nearer the black hole, so if the solar system (with us) are sucked into one, who knows; to *us* we may feel an eternity as we're nearer to the edge of the black hole, but to the outside perspective, we're going at the speed of light (maybe). It's a weird concept, but really fascinating.

 

[Domino]

What's even more strange are their flipsides - theoretical "white holes".

 

[FakePlasticAlice]

Time also slows down as you get nearer the black hole, so if the solar system (with us) are sucked into one, who knows; to *us* we may feel an eternity as we're nearer to the edge of the black hole, but to the outside perspective, we're going at the speed of light (maybe). It's a weird concept, but really fascinating.

It's actually the opposite. From our point of view, as we approach the event horizon we enter the black hole without any alteration to the perceived time it takes and we continue on with our horrible death. However, to an outsider, we slow down as we approach the event horizon and seem to be perpetually stuck in time, forever on the edge of falling into the black hole.

 

[FakePlasticAlice]

The cyclic model of the universe, an alternative to the big bang theory:
(unsure of the roll of black holes in the Baum–Frampton model, i'll have to look into it further myself)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model

 

[guesswho]

Ok, the thing is that the universe is expanding right? That's a fact. As the universe expands the distance between galaxies grows, so you see, it actually becomes harder for black holes to eat everything as everything is being pushed apart.

The black hole doesn't necessarily have to serve a functional purpose in order to exist, as a star runs out of fuel, it's chemistry will change, it will expand and collapse under it's own weight. Kind of like the universe. Nothing truly disappears, everything is transformed into something else....so matter is in a continuous change.

Now assuming this law is universal, the universe cannot expand forever, it doesn't really make much sense, like a star, it will grow so big, that it'll collapse one day...and probably give birth to something new. Another universe? (Why do I say another..it'll still be the same damn thing) I think that as the universe collapses, it's laws of physics will change, something will change inside of it (assuming that it will behave like a star - that is transformed into a supernova afterwards..)

Black holes are truly fascinating, that's for sure. Our universe's deadliest creation. (of what we know so far) Yet when a star dies, it gives birth to planets, or other stars, because of the chemicals it has "baked".

It's pretty ironic, the death of a star gives birth to life, planes, other stars and who knows what else. The universe is self sustaining.

And (offtopic)

And I find it absurd that us humans, on a planet, out of the billions of planets, near one of the billions of stars, have a 2000 year old theory about how the universe appeared. We don't understand 1% of it. Maximum 1 percent, and even that is exagerated, yet we claim that a God, has created all of this. How can we know anything? When we're so small...yet with such a sense of self importance.

 

[FakePlasticAlice]

Lets put cosmic inflation aside for a moment and just imagine that black holes did swallow the universe.

When a black hole swallows something that something still exists in a scrambled version of itself outside of the black hole as information. It doesn't actually swallow anything whole and leave no trace behind. So if universe were to be swallowed by black holes, would the universe still exist in a scrambled version of itself outside of the black hole?

I have no answer, i don't even know if the question makes sense.. just something i thought about.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

This forum is a black hole.

 

[FakePlasticAlice]

Your mom is a black hole

 

[Eric B]

There was a theory called "the Big Crunch" that said that gravity might pull everything back together. But that is all gravity; not just black holes.
However, scientists are now going with the theory that there is not enough mass or density for gravity to pull everything back together, but that rather, the expansion is increasing. So what will happen, is that all the stars will burn out, and a lot of matter will be sucked into black holes (the sun is too small to become one. It has to be at least three or more solar masses).

But the black holes themselves do dissolve, when particle/antiparticle pairs are ripped apart by them. (Hawking Radiation). Every particle that escapes while its partner falls in, reduces the mass of the hole.
so after large periods of time, they will all dissolve. the universe will then consist of loose charged particles, or something like that IIRC.

 

[jixmixfix]

Lets put cosmic inflation aside for a moment and just imagine that black holes did swallow the universe.

When a black hole swallows something that something still exists in a scrambled version of itself outside of the black hole as information. It doesn't actually swallow anything whole and leave no trace behind. So if universe were to be swallowed by black holes, would the universe still exist in a scrambled version of itself outside of the black hole?

I have no answer, i don't even know if the question makes sense.. just something i thought about.

Well, all matter cannot just vanish and becomes destroyed, matter turns into other matter. So at the end of the black hole there must be a enormous amount of compressed matter. Not all suns turn into black holes, only the massive ones. Black holes apparently follow the same laws of physics in that they orbit around the galaxy the same way suns and planets orbit, black holes also have the capability to swallow entire solar systems whole. So maybe black holes don't really serve a purpose in the universe other than being a giant vacuum that compresses unused matter. Kind of like the cleaner of dust the universe.

 

[jixmixfix]

Well, when they ask what's *inside* the black hole, the answer most of astronomy professors give is "I don't know". We don't know what there is on the other side of the black hole, although various people have suggested the so-called *alternate dimension* (or, the parallel universe, per se). For a start, you don't even know what black holes are exactly, because they suck light, and the only evidence you can yield that indicate if there is *one* (hypothetically), is the way matter behaves around *it* (the unknown, concluded as the black hole). I don't know if this is the cycle of the universe, though. There are many unanswered questions, and again - black holes are still largely theory. When the universe came about with the big bang, it was said that it expanded so quickly, they have to create a new unit of time for it (the planck time). Basically, the universe went from smaller than an atom to practically the size we *observe* the universe as it is in just (approximately) 5 to 7 planck times. [1 planck time = 5.39 x 10^-44s.] - that's beyond belief. Gives you an estimation of what Infinity really is. Even now, the universe is accelerating at that estimated rate. This means, in my opinion, the universe is practically gone to eternity, and there is no force (black hole, or whatsoever) that'll affect it. If a black hole were to have any chance, each black hole will have to come from stars many billions (probably trillions) of times the mass of the Sun, which would take a farther millions (or billions) of years, and then those supermassive black holes will have to travel across the galaxy (across to other galaxies, maybe) to join together to get large enough to propogate greater damage. I think we may get sucked by a black hole. There's one super massive black hole in the center of our galaxy that's sucking all the stellar systems toward it, but it's also said we don't know what'll happen when we get near it. It's called the Event Horizon. Time also slows down as you get nearer the black hole, so if the solar system (with us) are sucked into one, who knows; to *us* we may feel an eternity as we're nearer to the edge of the black hole, but to the outside perspective, we're going at the speed of light (maybe). It's a weird concept, but really fascinating.

It's pretty insane, M theory suggests that our universe is made up of strings and vibrations. It claims that there are 11 dimensions and that the reason why gravity is so weak is because is has to travel through multiple dimensions. Our whole galaxy is stuck inside a giant membrane that may be apart of many other membranes(possibly an infinite amount) that (could) act as parallel universes. A more sophisticated theory of the big bang suggests that two universes collided with one another and blended together to form what our universe is today. It is said that those two universes would have completely different laws of physics.

 

[guesswho]

This forum is a black hole.

haha black holes do swallow time.

 

[AOA]

It's pretty insane, M theory suggests that our universe is made up of strings and vibrations. It claims that there are 11 dimensions and that the reason why gravity is so weak is because is has to travel through multiple dimensions. Our whole galaxy is stuck inside a giant membrane that may be apart of many other membranes(possibly an infinite amount) that (could) act as parallel universes. A more sophisticated theory of the big bang suggests that two universes collided with one another and blended together to form what our universe is today. It is said that those two universes would have completely different laws of physics.

As far as I know, gravity is too weak to hold super massive structures like galaxies together, but I'm not sure if this is dimension-related. That is another topic altogether, and I see it speculatively. The *strings and vibrations* which you refer of is known as, what I heard, *Dark Matter*, which is pretty non-existent in regular physics. However, it forms the hypothetical criterion, which is known to hold galaxies together, and also influence the gravitational relationship *between* galaxies. Furthermore, there is another hypothesis, which suggests a significantly more greater force that harnesses the energy about the universe, which again cannot be explained by regular physics - by itself. It is known as *Dark Energy*. It's another speculative issue raised amongst physicists, much like dimensions. Speaking of dimensions, however, personally I think it's a different topic as opposed to astronomy, in the sense that we unfolded via the nature of black holes. If this universe is truly eternal (infinite), there should be above all doubt that any dimension outside our own should exist - because nothing trespasses infinity. It's impossible. Every thing that occurs, occurs in *this* dimension - thus, there is only one. The only way, however, to change dimensions, is to go faster than the speed of light, because as Einstein postulated - the speed of light is the limit according to the laws of physics.

 

[Mole]

As I fall through the event horizon of a black hole there comes a moment when my centrifigal force exactly equals my gravitational force. I can't move up and I can't move down and it's getting crowded in here. Everything that has fallen in is whirling around with me, getting nowhere. One hundred billion solar masses all jostling for space. Victor appears, talking in some indecipherable gobble-de-gook, but we can't ignore him, anymore than we can ignore him here. Hell, they told me, is other people but they told me nothing about black holes.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

So from my understanding our milky way galaxy contain millions of these black holes, but no body knows what their function is in the universe. Since black holes are formed through the death of dying stars, the gravity that is omitted out of these black holes is so strong that even light gets sucks into it. After reading about the big bang theory, and how it happened 13.4 billion years ago I came to a possible theory.
Since black holes serve to condense matter into small sizes and form and combine with other black holes, would it mean that the black hole is trying to transform our solor system into the tiny bit of condense matter that was once formed before the big bang? If you think about it in about 5 billion years our star will die and might possibly turn into a black hole or get sucked into one. As well as many other stars throughout our galaxy. Is this the cycle of the universe? Do we all get sucked into a tiny bit of condense matter and then explode once again in a big bang, like the one that happen 13.4 billion years ago? I'm not an astrophysicist but this theory makes sense to me, what do you guys think?

No, not exactly the way you're thinking:

Thanks to work done by Stephen Hawking we now suspect that black holes emit radiation thus they lose mass.. According to Stephen Hawking's theory the temps are proportional to the surface gravity which is inversely proportional to the mass of the black hole as a result we can conclude that larger black holes will emit less radiation than smaller ones. The theory of relativity tells us that mass is energy thus the black holes - even the super massive ones - will eventually 'bleed out' and dissipate over time.

It's been further speculated that supermassive black holes are in fact pushing the universe further and further apart. The entropy of the universe has been increasing since it's formation. If matter in the universe reaches a state of zero thermodynamic free energy then heat death will have occurred. Since it is possible that supermassive black holes can contain infinite possible configurations for particles trapped inside it and entropy describes all the possible arrangements of particles in an object it is possible that black holes are significant contributors to the overall increase of entropy in the universe and thus pushing us to heat death even faster.

Despite the above stated theory:
Particles - even those that are subatomic - need to be sufficiently close in order to facilitate perturbations which facilitate movement, this movement can be referred to as kinetic energy, this kinetic energy of the moving particles can be referred to as heat, which is simply a form of energy that transfers through particles in a system via their kinetic energy...

In the concept of heat death the universe - which is expanding - is approaching absolute zero - at which time all movement stops, thus all collisions stop, thus all kinetic energy stops...

Heat can be related to the concept of enthalpy by defining enthalpy as the total amount of energy that the system can emit in the form of heat. Enthalpy defines the total energy of a thermodynamic system.. a similar equilibrium will happen with all other forms of energy thus when the universe uses up all of it's energy heat death will occur as no work can be extracted from the universe and no work can be extracted from heat transfer....

Of course it's all just speculation as the equation of state, the shape (i.e. local and global geometry) of the universe, and the amount of dark energy are all extremely important to the fate of the universe - but that is a discussion for a different day and probably a different thread since this thread is about black holes and not the fate of the universe.

hopefully you found this post somewhat informative - if you'd like to know more about this kind of stuff you can feel free to PM me.
Cheers,
Spin-1/2-nuclei

 

[jixmixfix]

No, not exactly the way you're thinking:

Thanks to work done by Stephen Hawking we now suspect that black holes emit radiation thus they lose mass.. According to Stephen Hawking's theory the temps are proportional to the surface gravity which is inversely proportional to the mass of the black hole as a result we can conclude that larger black holes will emit less radiation than smaller ones. The theory of relativity tells us that mass is energy thus the black holes - even the super massive ones - will eventually 'bleed out' and dissipate over time.

It's been further speculated that supermassive black holes are in fact pushing the universe further and further apart. The entropy of the universe has been increasing since it's formation. If matter in the universe reaches a state of zero thermodynamic free energy then heat death will have occurred. Since it is possible that supermassive black holes can contain infinite possible configurations for particles trapped inside it and entropy describes all the possible arrangements of particles in an object it is possible that black holes are significant contributors to the overall increase of entropy in the universe and thus pushing us to heat death even faster.

Despite the above stated theory:
Particles - even those that are subatomic - need to be sufficiently close in order to facilitate perturbations which facilitate movement, this movement can be referred to as kinetic energy, this kinetic energy of the moving particles can be referred to as heat, which is simply a form of energy that transfers through particles in a system via their kinetic energy...

In the concept of heat death the universe - which is expanding - is approaching absolute zero - at which time all movement stops, thus all collisions stop, thus all kinetic energy stops...

Heat can be related to the concept of enthalpy by defining enthalpy as the total amount of energy that the system can emit in the form of heat. Enthalpy defines the total energy of a thermodynamic system.. a similar equilibrium will happen with all other forms of energy thus when the universe uses up all of it's energy heat death will occur as no work can be extracted from the universe and no work can be extracted from heat transfer....

Of course it's all just speculation as the equation of state, the shape (i.e. local and global geometry) of the universe, and the amount of dark energy are all extremely important to the fate of the universe - but that is a discussion for a different day and probably a different thread since this thread is about black holes and not the fate of the universe.

hopefully you found this post somewhat informative - if you'd like to know more about this kind of stuff you can feel free to PM me.
Cheers,
Spin-1/2-nuclei

Thanks for the replay that is all very interesting stuff, I defiantly would like to discuss the possible outcomes about the faith of the universe. How is the universe expanding exactly? Is all the matter in the universe slowly spreading apart? Maybe all the matter sucked in the black holes when the black hole runs out of gravitational energy will expand and create mini universes inside our own?

 

[Lexicon]

Thanks for the replay that is all very interesting stuff, I defiantly would like to discuss the possible outcomes about the faith of the universe. How is the universe expanding exactly? Is all the matter in the universe slowly spreading apart? Maybe all the matter sucked in the black holes when the black hole runs out of gravitational energy will expand and create mini universes inside our own?

May I refer you here. Skim through for some general answers to your questions. I also recommend looking for documentaries about cosmology, physics, etc. Visual aids are helpful at times.
*tips hat*

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

Thanks for the replay that is all very interesting stuff, I defiantly would like to discuss the possible outcomes about the faith of the universe. How is the universe expanding exactly? Is all the matter in the universe slowly spreading apart? Maybe all the matter sucked in the black holes when the black hole runs out of gravitational energy will expand and create mini universes inside our own?

1.) Sometimes people believe that the universe is literally expanding out into something but it's really just expanding into itself... It's what physicists call metric expansion... this is mainly due to intertia.. in the early universe objects began moving away from each other but physicists don't know why - gravity then slowed this expansion - but it continues today and now some physicists believe that dark energy is responsible for the accelerated expansion of the universe..

special relativity doesn't restrict the speed at which space can expand but rather it restricts the expansion of objects in the universe relative to other objects in the universe such that they aren't capable of traveling faster that the speed of light with respect to one another. Which basically just means that it is possible there are objects in space that cannot be observed from other objects (i.e. they are flying away from one another faster than the speed of light) - which is just the physicists way of saying the universe that we can't see probably out numbers the universe that we can see. If you google something called the FLRW metric it will give you information on how they go about calculating the metric expansion of the universe..

2.) Well all the matter in the universe is believed to be heading towards a maximum state of entropy - I think this article here explains this well - http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae261.cfm

3.) some physicists have speculated that this is possible - but it's not that straight forward:
The problem with this is that after the big bang everything was expanding and over time the rate of that expansion has slowed. To make this a little more clear I will refer to the universe as all observable matter and space as (the box that contains it <---- this isn't entirely accurate but it works insofar as it should help visualize this)...

Anyway...
So space itself can be flat but spacetime must have curvature and this curvature can be a result of the temporal aspects of the space-time metric... Furthermore, the *absolute* curvature of space results from things like the expansion, local curvature, and the density of matter.. The Schwarzschild solution of the gravitational equations provides the parameters for when a static spherical body collapses into a black hole but it's limit doesn't apply to matter if it is rapidly expanding...

hopefully this is helpful..
I think there is a really good intro book on cosmology - but I can't think of the name of it right now... I will try to remember it and post it here when I do..

Cheers,
Spin-1/2-nuclei

 

[crevalleJack]

On a side note

When a star collapses into a neutron star you are left with only neutrons at the core but I had the audacity to claim that a black hole is a collapsed star but instead of neutrons it had neutrinos at its core.

But neutrinos have no mass so I guess i'm wrong.

WTF are neutrino in comparison to neutron anyway?