• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

A third type of dimensional continuum?

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Just like my new "Super Short" version of my essays on type and temperament, I recently thought of a new way to state an idea I had about the dimensionality of the universe. (Original version here: BDMNQR Essays: Math & Science).

Similarly now, I will use a "build it up from scratch" method of explaining. In order to explain this new continuum, we will also have to come up with a fundamental definition of space and time, the other two continuums of the unoverse.
-----------

If we imagine loops of string, in different states. Say color.
I can have only one color
initialobject.gif
, but I imagine other "realities" where the circle appears other colors. These different circles are displaced in a medium that appears imaginary, because in our perception, only one "reality" can be actualized at a time.

chance.gif


So we need a way to actualize the other states of the circle.
One way is to essentially create copies of the circle with each one being one of the other colors. We can then place them in a "side by side" displacement, and all are then actualized at once.
spacesequence.gif

We have now created a new dimensional medium, called SPACE.

In this medium, we can freely, randomly access each circle, measure their location relative to each other, building a scale called distance.
-----------------

How can we actualize the different states of the same object without creating copies of it?
We can have it change to all the different colors, the displacement being sequential, "one after the other", involving causation. We raise the frequency, causing one color to turn into the next.
timesequence.gif

This is yet another dimensional medium, called TIME.

One drawback, is that we do not have the total freedom to randomly access these states. Unless the cycle is looped, if you miss one, there is no way to get back to it. Actualization is now avery brief thing.
--------------------

So we see we have arrived at the same "different states" of an object, using three different means.

One, we hypothesized these alternate states, as simple parallel realities, and basically imagined a medium connecting them.
What we lacked, was a way to actualize them.

Two, we placed these alternate realities in a medium where they could be actualized all at once, and randomly acessed.

Three, we had a medium where the original object itself could actualize all of these different states one after the other.


Of course, our universe is a combination of these last two. "Events" are actualized changes of states of matter and energy marking location in both the randomly accessed medium (which is actually fanned out into three dimensions of freedom), as well as the sequential medium.
All together, this is called "four dimensional spacetime".

The premise is that the first medium, which I call "chance", is the primary "Father"-like realm (i.e. "Patrix"), and that space and time are simply manifestations of it, in which reality is actualized.

This was paralled with the early Church's understanding of God as being the Father, and the Son and Spirit as springing forth as the accessible representatives of a divine nature that otherwise cannot be contained in the physical spacetime universe. (Where the later Church reconfigured this into three separate "equals" sitting side by side).

Another premise is that this "chance" dimension might be able to figure in theoretical equations calling for various dimensions that are currently assumed to be space or time.

Like the six tiny (10^35m) "extra" dimensions of string theory. Some variations add anywhere from one to sixteen additional ones. All of these are generally assumed to be spatial. (Occasionally, a suggestion of one of them being temporal surfaces).

But perhaps they are chance. Wouldn't this fit in with the "uncertainty principle" that string theory is in part based on? (that a particle may or may not appear at a given location)

Every alternate state of every string in the universe would generate a new dimension of "chance".
So perhaps in these field equations calling for more dimensions, each one would somehow involve that number (6, 16, etc) of probabilies that could become real.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
Your ideas are interesting. Why no "chance" continuum? Impossible to prove. Time and space, yes. I don't think this fits with the uncertainty principle because it doesn't account for "parallel states" or a parallel existence of the same particle. "Unchosen", was simply never actualized and that's the reality. So no, I don't think there is a continuum in which parallel timelines exists where you're wearing a blue shirt, a red shirt, a yellow shirt all at the same time. Only one is "actualized" in time and space. Who cares about the rest? Respectfully, the only thing that makes sense with regards to your thoughts on a "chance" continuum are your thoughts on God and the trinity. Why? God is "God", creator of the universe (not by chance), but by perfect design. Only something all powerful and brilliant could have made everything come together so perfectly. Realizing that creation around me earns my respect and belief in a high power. God's perfect design. We follow physical laws per that design. He makes his own rules and frankly I'm sure he does whatever the heck he wants; which may also include having a parallel existence in parallel universes: father, son, spirit... omnipresence, sure, why not. I accept that.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Scientists might care if it can figure in their equations (which is what determines the total number of dimensions they belive exist).

Like when they speculate on objects such as tachyons (which move faster than light, and can never be slowed down), heading out in one direction, and then attempting to return, but from a different inertial frame of reference would theoretically have it return before it left. Then, I have read about some theory of a rotating mass of matter spread over the universe, that would somehow bring you back in time if you travelled around it or something.

So in order to not violate causality, it would also have to be travelling to one of those parallel realities, where it would be at the particular "earlier" point of time in that point of space.

Since the theoretical physics books do mention this stuff, then it would be good to consider "chance" as a "vector space" (another descriptive term I did not think of in the OP).

And I also think of it in terms of God's relation to us. He could show us parallel realities in revealing why He may have done things that He did (which people often cannot understand), of if we had gotten everything we want, etc.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,708
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
Yeah. I'm still waiting for any sort of empirical data.
And no, vaguely quoting crazy folk tales that were never connected to any sort of empirical data what so ever does no, magically make it into something conclusive.
It's called wishful thinking, and denotes of a ridiculous amount of confirmation bias.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
I seem to vaguely remember Einstein theorizing about something similar just before he died. He was never satisfied with his findings, so it remains a mystery and the master key to the universe is still waiting to be discovered. Are you familiar with Einstein's latest work? Do you think it supports a third continuum?
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
From what I gather; Einstein, in his latter days, seemed to be trying to put together a theory of everything, which current string theorists are trying to finish. the key is unifying gravity with the other forces. And it seems higher dimensions were the key to that.

"Vector space" wasn't an alternative term for "chance" if that's what you think, it was the technical term for what I called "dimensional continuum". Space and time are examples of vector spaces.

Yeah. I'm still waiting for any sort of empirical data.
And no, vaguely quoting crazy folk tales that were never connected to any sort of empirical data what so ever does no, magically make it into something conclusive.
It's called wishful thinking, and denotes of a ridiculous amount of confirmation bias.

Sometimes it has to start with that (after all, these ideas are drafted in their field equations before any testing can be done). The empirical testing for dimensions is particle colliders, and it's just a matter of being able to build bigger ones that can generate the energy required to detect the higher dimensions.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
From what I gather; Einstein, in his latter days, seemed to be trying to put together a theory of everything, which current string theorists are trying to finish. the key is unifying gravity with th eother forces. And it seems higher dimensions were the key to that.

What about parallel universes and time travel?

I found this article,
Albert Einstein and the Fabric of Time

Quote from the article:
Unfortunately it wasn't until Einstein died that scientists began to consider the a Many Worlds Theory in science. It's safe to say that in Einstein's time we were still getting used to the idea of the Big Bang, adjusting to the ever more visible vast sea of other galaxies, and the possibility of alien life on other planets. The universe and reality were still primarily considered purely solid and material based. Quantum theory, which eventually led to the theory of many worlds, had not yet fully withstood the test of time. Einstein even rejected its implications, saying "God does not play dice" with the world, even as he himself established that there is more to the universe than a single evolving moment of now.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,581
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There are as many dimensions as we can think of, but there is still only one universe. Dimensions are like MBTI. A categorical naming system.

There are many buttons on my keyboard. I can observe the buttons. I can touch them, I can press them, I can even hold them. But there is a limit to the amount of dimensions I can interact with it. That limit is the amount of dimensions it has. Pondering on further dimensions seems to be futile to me.

Einstein was probably never satisfied with his findings because he disliked the limits of his perception. We can interact up to the dimension of time to an extent, we are incapable of perceiving beyond that dimension.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
What about parallel universes and time travel?

I found this article,
Albert Einstein and the Fabric of Time

What they're calling "timelessness" or time laid out as a fourth dimension of space is what I'm calling chance. It's a swath of an entire set of possible states (i.e. configurations of matter and energy).
What they're imagining is simply a simultaneous [re-]actualization of the particular actualized sequence we have experienced. So then, you could look at all of time for our three dimensional universe as a four dimensional "film strip" so to speak.

But even that is just one "slice" out of many other non-actualized possibilities.
In such a model, what we call time is created purely out of space. Special directions in space travel through each static three dimensional space, therein producing a new realm of space beyond three dimensions, which we call time.
This is basically treating space as the "Father-like" continuum, which seems to be the common assumption. But space seems to be better defined in terms of simultaneous actualization of different states of matter/energy. So you could in fact lay it all out as space, (and then "run" it as a film) but in our experience where there is only one dimension of actualization (a timelike "Lineland"), it cannot properly be called space. (This unlike the classic concept of higher spatial dimensions, where the higher dimensions are simultaneously actualized; we just can't move in them).
So it is basically a hypothetical kind of space (just like time is a sequential kind of space), that we can call "chance".

Here's a video that builds up a 10 dimensional space from scratch. Time is the fourth, of course. Dimensions 5 and 6 would be the realm I am calling "chance". Then, in a Part 2 video, he tries to expand upon that, but it seems to me, 7-10 are just other ways of expressing "chance".

[youtube="JkxieS-6WuA"]Imagining the Tenth Dimension[/youtube]
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Here's a scenario where this "chance" theory could resolve religion-science conflicts. (Witness all the threads on this, like right now).
This might sound a bit way out, but who knows...

Eden might have been one of these parallel realities, in which two people, Adam and Eve were created, in a universe created in six days.
It is known that the location of this "garden", which is described in terms of a literal eartly place, is uncertain, as the familiar Euphrates River is mentioned, but the other three (with which it branches off from a common source) are unknown, especially with one encompassing the land of Ethiopia.

So the entire topography was different (though diehard "flood geologists" will try to argue that was changed by the Flood. More on this next).

When they fall, God then banishes them, not to another spacelike location, but by placing them in an alternate timeline, where the universe is based on cycles of cataclysmic creation and destruction, and life relies on a difficult and often violent cycle of toil and death. The pair now end up part of a race of creatures who had evolved with the rest of life; a seeming godless process of survival, marking the separation from God.
(Hence, their son, Cain was able to find a female partner. They would now and thereafter fit right in with the rest of the universe, as Cain would go on and commit the first "murder").

Since the scriptural record is covering the actualized path of the new humans, it all reads as a single timeline. (And of course, God is not going to reveal the metaphysical details, as they are not the point of the story).

It seems the world continued to tunnel into different states, with the laws of nature changing and covering up their tracks. You had a global flood that seems physically impossible by today's known laws. (Seemed to still be based on a totally different cosmology, where the earth lied between two bodies of water in a vertical stack of sorts). Men lived for centuries.

At some point, we enter this current "Standard Model" based realm.

I used to propose as an explanation something I read in Michio Kaku's book, regarding how the 6D orbifolds of string theory (also known as "Calabi-Yau spaces") shape the Standard Model we are familiar with, and could actually tunnel to a totally different state if this weren't the true lowest energy state (like a bedsheet wanting to curl up from the corners).
The premise I had previously mentioned was that these six (or more) tiny dimensions might not necessarily be spatial, as is assumed; but rather "chance" (even though this sounds totally random, a God could still be in control of it). Hence, this tunneling might have been generating new timelines where natural laws and the state of man are different.

Perhaps life as it would have been without the Fall is one of the counterfactuals we will gain access to, once we die and leave this space/timeline?
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
I agree with Eck, a theory about states and circles hasnt any real connection so far and therefore seems a bit like hovering over experimental physics. But well there's a reason people differentiate between theorethical and experimental ( tho I'ld like to add philosophical to that list, cause many things have no real connection to physics or astronomy ).

Maybe you want to read more about M-theory or membrane - theory, it deals a bit with the thing you are proposing. The idea is that there are multiple layers of spacetime out there, which lay like satin on top of each others, influencing each others. This idea originated from an explanation attempt regarding the gravitational force, which is according to theory a force that could exist in all layers of dimension and that could be the case why it's only so weak in our dimension, where we experience it.

I've found the circle you drew to religion, very ridicioulus, tho I find your attempt of doing so very brave. If you dig a bit into electromagnetism, you'll find that there are some constants in the universe. Like for example the Planck constant. This is a fundamental constant necessary for energy to exist, if it had been of any different value, energy as we know it wouldnt have the proportions it has and prolly couldnt have formed matter. Next to that there's the gravitational constant, which if it was only a slight bit of would have made it impossible for our solar system to form, so would have made it impossible for the planets to revolve around the sun like they do.

This phenomna you could use for a religious interpretation, like "did God set the values ?!" Physics say the bigbang happened multiple times, like a billion times, before a state was achieved in which it was possible for the universe to exist like it does today. I tend to believe physics on this but who knows maybe it was God ? Or Hankey, the christmas poo :)
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
M theory assumes the medium the branes are embedded in is space (higher dimensional, that is). This idea suggests it's this different medium parallel realities are embedded in. Because the mediums are interchangeable, both can somehow be true, as they can act like each other under the right circumstances.

But I believe the universal constants are apart of the Standard Model, and the whole point of that orbifold tunneling theory I mentioned (which is from Kaku, not my idea on religion) is that everything would be different in other orbifolds. If the universe were to tunnel to a different state, a bubble would appear and expand outward at the speed of light and engulf the universe. All the laws would change, and matter would break apart and reform itself in new ways.
(At least I assumed the Planck and gravitational constants were affected by that. I could be wrong, and would have to look at it again. Of course, yes; God could create any constants in any orbifolds).
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
Eric B, Brilliant, as usual!

Entropie, I thought my fellow Germans were a little smarter than that. The Big Bang & Hanky the Christmas Poo? Nonsense! :laugh:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Great ideas. I wonder if... Thought! I was studying carbohydrates within our body in Chemistry today. Big, comparitively speaking, but the fatty acids that connect to the glycogen (I believe it's called, or something like that) are all linear and packed together. Perhaps the universes are structured like the geometry of the fatty acid, they are a whole triglycerides. Shawty connections but as numbers grow really small and really big they both approach infinity, right? We can learn the structure of the universe by looking at the smallest gemotrical shape (besides the point). Which would also mean that electromagnegativity would be holding the universes together! The line would be from the center of one atom to another.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The smallest objects would be the strings themselves (10-35m). According to string theory (at least as taught by Brian Greene), space itself might be made of strings. Beneath those, the medium they are embedded in is not space.
 

Manis

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
47
MBTI Type
INFP
It's very late at night and I've had a lot to drink, but your idea still doesn't make a lot of sense to me (those things usually help with deep theoretical thought :D).

Dimensions have scalar values (I'm not sure [not a physicist] but I think that's pretty much required of them) so I don't think 'chance' could be considered a dimension. If what you're trying to find an explanation for is all those weird quantum effects, I prefer the whole brane thing. If it's causality, I like the idea of time being another dimension that's expanding along with the universe's spatial dimensions. If you're looking for some continuum that exists beneath all the other dimensions, well that's not really what's meant by a continuum. I think I need to add some of this kind of stuff to my reading list (though maybe not Kaku, he's too much of a T.V. whore).
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Dimensions are considered vectors, not scalars (as far as I know). In fact, another term for what I'm calling a "continuum" is "vector space".
 

Manis

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
47
MBTI Type
INFP
Aye, they have scalar value and the fact that they are a dimension makes it a vector. No contradiction :)

What I was interested in is if there is any specific problem you were trying to tackle with your idea or if it was just a different way of looking at things, and if it's the latter what does it add?
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It's the latter, and what it adds is that this "chance" dimension might be able to figure in theoretical equations calling for various dimensions that are currently assumed to be space or time; such as the tiny (10 -35m) "extra" dimensions of string theory that figure in the notion of "probability" and "potentiality".
 
Top