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Is the brain the source of faith?

JAVO

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Is the brain the source of faith?

Can brain imaging prove or disprove that the brain is the source of faith?

Sam Harris said:
People who feel that religious faith is a singular operation of the brain--if they admit that it's an operation of the brain at all--would object to what I'm doing, since it may show that faith is essentially the same as other kinds of knowing or thinking. The whole thing will seem fishy to anyone who thinks we have immaterial souls running around in our bodies.

Related article:
What Your Brain Looks Like on Faith - TIME
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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I haven't read about the idea that faith might be related to something immaterial. But then again, I know that the concept of "soul" is something immaterial, spiritual and intangible by the popular definition. I don't believe either. I go by the original, although little known definition of soul: a living creature. I was delighted by usehername's recent new sig btw :)

Many religions seem to define faith as believing without reason. I'm sad that some support ideas they admit no reason believing in. Or then, perhaps they just have a poor choice for wording.

My definition of faith is to trust something on the basis of strong but inconclusive evidence. This includes topics where no conclusive evidence can be gathered at the moment.

Having faith in something with conclusive evidence against it would qualify as dogmatic stubbornness for me.
 

The Ü™

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The brain itself is not a source of faith, the mind is. You can't see a mind.
 
O

Oberon

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The brain itself is not a source of faith, the mind is.

That's more than you know.

Also, the mechanists around here (as I understand it) see cognition as no more than a data-processing function of the brain, so the point is moot.

Sorry.
 

nightning

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It reminds me of what I've learnt in the psychology class on brain and cognition. How do people make decisions? "Hard decisions vs easy decisions" Types of decisions that can be made can be divided categorically by a tree. Impersonal decisions (where should I have my lunch today?) vs Personal decisions (how should I respond to his request?). Personal decisions are again subdivided before easy and hard. Easy decisions are without major conflicts. The logical and emotional aspect both points towards the same answer. Hard questions is when the two does not agree. Where you are forced to weigh and balance the two in coming up with your decision. Snuffling baby example. That was the notes for that class.

Linking this to the Times article... If a hard decision is just a normal decision except it involves both the mental and emotional areas of the brain. Then there should be no surprise that brain activation when assessing objective vs subjective problems would be similar. Although it is a neat spin to relate brain activation to visualizing faith.

Ventral medial prefrontal cortex (VMPC)... oh darn looks like I was correct. It's based on the same research afterall. People are speculating too much about what can be done with MRI results. Activation of brain regions tells you nothing about what is going on in there? Only that the region is involved in processing believes. Even the negative subtraction can only point out so much. A belief is a belief... Whether processing believes is the same or not cannot be readily answered using MRI. This is great for publicity though.
 

Athenian200

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Is the brain the source of faith?

Can brain imaging prove or disprove that the brain is the source of faith?

Anything a human being can process cognitively or emotionally must take place in the brain on some level. Why is this shocking? If you believe in faith, then you can believe that the brain is simply responding to the will of the soul or something. If not, it gives you an explanation of why people have faiths. I don't understand why anyone has a problem with this idea, really.
 

The Ü™

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That's more than you know.

Also, the mechanists around here (as I understand it) see cognition as no more than a data-processing function of the brain, so the point is moot.

Sorry.

I understand that. But you don't know what the chemical reactions in the brain represent. (If you can, then I have officially developed a phobia that people might try to read my thoughts.)
 

ptgatsby

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Is the brain the source of faith?

Can brain imaging prove or disprove that the brain is the source of faith?

Yes...

(Is this not like asking "Can you have belief without a brain" and "does your brain register in brain imaging"?)
 

Totenkindly

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headasplodefc2.png

I smell Scott Kurtz here somewhere...

EDIT: Hilbert finally checked in on the sister thread on INTPc.
 

redacted

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The brain itself is not a source of faith, the mind is. You can't see a mind.

the mind is reducible to the brain. therefore the brain (or at least the parts of it that make up the mind) is also the source.

unless you want to argue that the mind isn't reducible to the brain...but i've never seen that argument work out too well...
 

Domino

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I took JAVO to mean that faith might be something you do unconsciously or free of your cognitive processes, much in the way the "soul" or "spirit" of a human can be located no where concretely in the body, yet when the body dies, the spirit departs (have they not weighed people at point of death and noticed a loss in mass?) I don't think it's entirely unconnected from science but I do also think not everything is brain chemicals. That's just my take on it.
 

redacted

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I took JAVO to mean that faith might be something you do unconsciously or free of your cognitive processes, much in the way the "soul" or "spirit" of a human can be located no where concretely in the body, yet when the body dies, the spirit departs (have they not weighed people at point of death and noticed a loss in mass?) I don't think it's entirely unconnected from science but I do also think not everything is brain chemicals. That's just my take on it.

how could anything NOT be brain chemicals? (or just physical reactions)

if you want to make the claim that the soul/mind/whatever isn't fully reducible to physical reactions, then you have to explain how something non-physical can have an effect on the physical world. a pretty impossible feat if you ask me.
 

Domino

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I suppose the explanation would require someone greater than myself to do it.

Then again, we ARE speaking of faith, right?

Faith is a hope based on something you have yet to see or receive. Faith isn't quantifiable. As you say, impossible. Why would a brain concoct something so useless? What bearing does it have on the survival of the entity it steers? (Anyone may answer that, by the way.)
 

ptgatsby

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Faith is a hope based on something you have yet to see or receive. Faith isn't quantifiable. As you say, impossible. Why would a brain concoct something so useless? What bearing does it have on the survival of the entity it steers? (Anyone may answer that, by the way.)

Faith isn't hope, however - it is belief for belief sake. We all use it everyday - faith the bridge won't fall, faith that the elevator won't fall... We don't do a risk measurement for everything and so forth. It can be more - a coping mechanism (denial or justification - such as bad things are planned, etc), excusism (I act the way I do because I was taught to, but it's right because of...) and so forth, but in general it is simply a form of belief. For example, saying "I have faith that you won't cheat on me" generally means "I don't believe you will cheat on me even though I have no reason to know if you will". This is just for self-protection. The choice to believe on over the other is a defensive mechanism. Religion is often used in a similar way.

In that sense, faith is very quantifiable and fits in quite well with the way humans cope with the external world.
 
O

Oberon

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if you want to make the claim that the soul/mind/whatever isn't fully reducible to physical reactions, then you have to explain how something non-physical can have an effect on the physical world. a pretty impossible feat if you ask me.

Measure out for me about six ounces of justice, and I'll grant your premise.
 

redacted

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Faith is a hope based on something you have yet to see or receive. Faith isn't quantifiable. As you say, impossible. Why would a brain concoct something so useless? What bearing does it have on the survival of the entity it steers? (Anyone may answer that, by the way.)

why is faith not quantifiable? and why do you say it would be useless for the brain?

here's a little argument:
premise 1: faith affects behavior
premise 2: behavior is physical
premise 3: physical things are only affected by physical things
step 1: faith affects behavior ----> faith affects (something physical)
conclusion: because of premise 3, faith is physical

i'll guess right now you'll challenge my 3rd premise. can you think of a counterexample?
 

redacted

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Measure out for me about six ounces of justice, and I'll grant your premise.

what are you talking about?

when i say everything's physical, i do not mean everything is an object we can see or touch. but there must be some configuration of neurons in our brain that define the concept of justice (it's obviously a loose concept, but whatever), otherwise the concept/word 'justice' wouldn't exist.
 
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