Do Laws of Physics Lead to Determinism?

[nolla]

I was just trying to get some sleep and started thinking about Big Bang. If all the stuff and energy started from there and follow strict laws, then everything is determined. This current situation is determined by the Big Bang, right? Every cell in my body is result of a chain reaction that has been going on since the beginning of ... everything. Everything that has happened to me has been result of the same chain reaction.

Goddamn. If there is such thing as causality, it means I have no choice over anything. I can't believe I never thought about this. Please, explain me out of this... I don't like it.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Nope. Quantum Mechanics creates an inherent uncertainty in the universe. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that you can never know exactly the position and the momentum, and therefore speed, of an object at the same time. In quantum physics, particles appear and disappear, pass through solid objects, annihilate and "create" themselves at every moment. Quantum mechanics has ended causality in the sense you think of it.

 

[nolla]

Oh... I see. That's odd. I haven't slept, so it's no use for me to check that theory now, but if I understood right, that means that in the end there aren't any definite laws? I don't see how anyone could prove that there isn't a law behind that apparent randomness...

Very interesting, anyhow. I'll check it out when I had my sleep. Thanks.

 

[entropie]

There are probably laws behind the apparent randomness but according to quantum mechanics they dont follow causality anymore.

That means that you could witness an effect happening without a visible cause. This eludes the human brain completly, because you either need a reason for something to happen or it happened randomly. The thing is the linearity of time changes in the quantum world and therefore causality is eliminated.

 

[TheLastMohican]

JocktheMotie has a good point about quantum mechanics, but all that means is that we couldn't predict the exact course of the universe from the beginning. Nolla, you are right that you don't really have a choice about anything. (That blurs the definition of "you," doesn't it?) There are uncertainties due to quantum mechanics, but you don't have any more control over how those turn out than you do over classical mechanics, so you and your actions are still just the results of a slightly randomized chain reaction.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I agree with things said so far.

However you turn this it seems that you/we don't control much.

 

[Stanton Moore]

So what you really want to know is whether or not you have free will? Yes?

I don't think the laws of physics are related to your fate. of course, if you throw yourself off a building in existential dispair, you will be beholden to gravity before the end...

 

[Metamorphosis]

However you turn this it seems that you/we don't control much.

I don't know. There are some things that almost lend it to phenomenalism as much as determinism.

 

[Feops]

Quantum Mechanics creates an inherent uncertainty in the universe. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that you can never know exactly the position and the momentum, and therefore speed, of an object at the same time. In quantum physics, particles appear and disappear, pass through solid objects, annihilate and "create" themselves at every moment. Quantum mechanics has ended causality in the sense you think of it.

I'd debate this. It seems entirely too easy to concede that something is random and unknowable just because we don't know how it works. Sufficiently advanced science would appear as magic, and such.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I'd debate this. It seems entirely too easy to concede that something is random and unknowable just because we don't know how it works. Sufficiently advanced science would appear as magic, and such.

I would agree with this statement, however it has been found that this is how it works. We are not saying things are random because we can't see how it happens, we say things are random because that is what happens. The same math and experiments that give tremendously accurate predictions, also tell you there is no way to predict outcomes, only chances of outcomes. And you can see this. Research the double slit experiment. If you can understand the implications of that experiment, it is amazing.

That being said, if a new model comes out that can explain quantum mechanics perfectly, and explain other things we have questions about that makes even more accurate predictions and results, and it implies a causal universe, great. It would be a great achievement. I think people don't inherently like randomness and QM's theory/model, because it means you can never actually know everything about a system, and that goes against many scientist's idea of the deterministic universe that Newton started, and Einstein unwittingly ended.

 

[nolla]

Hmm... it seems that the only way one can believe in free will is to believe in supernatural. Interesting, yet depressing..

 

[Moiety]

You can also choose (in free will) to believe, like I do. Is a lot like optimism - only thing going for it are its benefits.


I do not believe in determinism either, in part for the reasons Jock pointed out, and in part because if it's the kind of knowledge (assuming it's a fact) for which there is no use. I believe knowledge is inherently usable (however insignificantly). If determinism were true, there's nothing I could attribute to conscious or subconscious decision. I couldn't even "use" that knowledge to get some peace of mind like "Hey, no matter what, I can't be held accountable for my actions nor can anybody else...let's just go with the flow and take the chillpill!.

 

[entropie]

I think the greatest problem in such philosophical ideas like basing causality on determinism lies in the metaphysical approach to the topic.

The behaviour of atoms according to causality is predictable but the human future is not predictable. These are two pair of shoes playing in two different dimensions. People too easy connect them and loose track of information on the way.

I have got the greatest problems with metaphysicists myself, because they make it easy to themselves.

Fact is there is no way to tell the future and there is no logical construct so far that includes free will and is able to predict exactly what will happen next. To think about it further is a logical flaw and to reduce human living to the dimension of atoms, is a loss of information about the system.

We had this discussions about determinism, when I was younger and though I didnt know much about physics then, I never could make up my mind about the fact that you can abstract or pervert a given system in such a way to fit into another. It's like ending with all physics after you finally discovered pi and now think you know it all.