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  1. #31
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    I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Authoritarianism is authoritarianism at the end of the day.
    Any sane person wouldn’t have to think about the matter beyond this very valid point. The uniforms, flags, and slogans may differ throughout history, but the violent oppression against societies under such regimes looks exactly the same.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If authoritarianism is trending then its got to stop, its totally ruinous, totally and utterly, whatever flag of convenience it is disguising itself with now, private, public, left, right, centre, green, it doesnt matter. You cant do a deal with the lesser devil on that score.
    What are your thoughts about censorship and the deplatforming of right-wing fascists on social media? If you allow unfettered free speech then extremist propaganda will give rise to hate groups and then next thing you know, there's a racist orange president putting brown families in concentration camps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Anyway, social credit deserves an airing, it seems strange that there's a private initiative as my understand of it is that its similar to some universal basic income ideas, which I think could only be properly developed by governments. Not because governments have the potential to be democratic and accountable in the fashion that business is not (I would say POTENTIAL though, its not certain) but because of the borrowing requirement for schemes like that, Says Law etc. etc.
    I agree that the government should be in control of the social credit system rather than corporations, but I guess at the moment, private companies have more freedom to enact such measures that would otherwise be prohibited by the constitution if it were in the hands of government. That's why we need to vote for politicians who will pass the necessary legislation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    But who allowed this to the Russians ? The same tech giants you are prizing, which care about nothing but money. Years have passed and we still have the same problems over and over.
    Plus what they are helping China build in social control is basically unforgivable and it isn't progressive at all.
    Russian trolligarchs hacked the DNC and gave Hillary's emails to Wikileaks. That didn't have anything to do with Silicon Valley.

    China is extremely left-wing so why wouldn't tech companies help them to stabilize their country? They're currently dealing with a populist uprising in Hong Kong. And Bernie Sanders just said recently that China has made tremendous strides in reducing poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I can see what the person is trying to say or achieve but this just isn't thought out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I simply get the sense that the person wants well but isn't too educated on the details of the subject.
    Actually, I have given this a lot of thought. You're just brainwashed by Faux News.

    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    And regarding socialism...I've got no problem with it, in theory. But for it to work, it needs to be a libertarian form. When you get into a strong, central authority pushing it, you just end up with a lot of the same corrupt opportunists preying upon the weak, as you get in capitalist societies and with fascist governments.

    Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia


    A lot of people don't make the distinctions between authoritarian socialism and the libertarian variety of it, but I have a feeling if those sorts of polls specified that distinction, you'd get most of the supporters choosing the latter over the former.
    I don't see how socialism can succeed without a strong, centralized government. Can you give any examples of successful libertarian socialism?

  4. #34
    Complex paradigm Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeydew View Post

    Russian trolligarchs hacked the DNC and gave Hillary's emails to Wikileaks. That didn't have anything to do with Silicon Valley.

    China is extremely left-wing so why wouldn't tech companies help them to stabilize their country? They're currently dealing with a populist uprising in Hong Kong. And Bernie Sanders just said recently that China has made tremendous strides in reducing poverty.
    You never heard the stories of Russian trolls on the internet and around social media ? What seems like legit and confirmed story, so the question is why this wasn't ever fully solved.

    Btw Russia and China have socio-economic pact, so they can't be 100% separated at this point in global context.


    Actually, I have given this a lot of thought. You're just been brainwashed by Faux News.
    Never watched the station, I live very far from the nearest US border.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeydew View Post
    I don't see how socialism can succeed without a strong, centralized government. Can you give any examples of successful libertarian socialism?
    Pure libertarian socialism of course would be unattainable, as some other members noted earlier, as it's basically a form of anarchy that is unachievable, but we can still apply some tenets without a strong central authority becoming involved. Instead of state-controlled means of production and distribution, we should aim for more worker-controlled means of production and distribution. I think that's closer to the original vision of socialism anyway. There are many good examples of successful employee/worker owned businesses. Technically these entities are still operating in a capitalist system, but they see overall better results, pay, quality of life, and benefits for their employees. Putting businesses under state ownership will not curb the corruption that we see in capitalist systems. Corrupt opportunists always find a way to take advantage of systems, whether in capitalist or socialist economies. That's the problem with strong central administrations.


    I think the best way to achieve something close to the libertarian socialist vision is to implement socialism within a democratic model.



    Participatory economics - Wikipedia
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Population: 1 View Post
    Any sane person wouldn’t have to think about the matter beyond this very valid point. The uniforms, flags, and slogans may differ throughout history, but the violent oppression against societies under such regimes looks exactly the same.
    This is why I found the book The Fear of Freedom and a lot of Erich Fromm's thinking about a social unconscious and social character to be so, so significant.

    I discovered those books relatively late in life but I had noticed many of the things they pointed up in my experience up until then of religions, political ideologies, movements and people. I definitely had begun to believe that most of the examples of religion, ideology and movements I'd seen in the world where flags of convenience for something else.

    Not, definitely not, in some sense of conspiracy theory. That's a different matter. Although not a different matter altogether because conspiracies where they exist (and I think its just straight up organised crime money more often than anything else) can be themselves a channel for the underlying social character.

    The problem with this is blindspots, they exist, I've written about them on this forum before and dont especially care to go into them again but I have found huge blind spots to be exercised by individuals who believe that persecutions carried out to introduce or further their own goals are automatically justified or justifiable, kind of like it goes without saying. No one feels like taking a care about governments legislating opinion, the right to work, deliver services as a business owner etc. when it seems to be out of step with their opinions.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Population: 1 View Post
    Any sane person wouldn’t have to think about the matter beyond this very valid point. The uniforms, flags, and slogans may differ throughout history, but the violent oppression against societies under such regimes looks exactly the same.
    Any sane person? I wouldnt know what one looked like even if it did actually exist. Which it doesn't.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeydew View Post
    What are your thoughts about censorship and the deplatforming of right-wing fascists on social media? If you allow unfettered free speech then extremist propaganda will give rise to hate groups and then next thing you know, there's a racist orange president putting brown families in concentration camps.
    I would not restrict the policing of social media to any single political opinion, there's problems with a lot of extremist opinion on social media, in the regular media too.

    A bigger problem right now I believe is the amount of disinformation, like conspiracy theories, anti-vaxxers, other sorts of efforts like those aimed at causing disruptions, spreading disease and discord. Its like they say about the invasion of armies being resisted and the invasion of ideas going unnoticed.

    I agree that the government should be in control of the social credit system rather than corporations, but I guess at the moment, private companies have more freedom to enact such measures that would otherwise be prohibited by the constitution if it were in the hands of government. That's why we need to vote for politicians who will pass the necessary legislation.
    Well the means that any social credit system is going to implemented is liable to involve privately owned firms, maybe they'll be corporations or maybe some other sort of business, state's dont often develop things like that "in house" so to speak, often if they do they are poor product for a variety of reasons.

    So I think exclusive ownership by private or public agencies is just unlikely, objectively, how it operates, ie data collection, data sharing, data storage, its use in crime fighting, public projects, any other consequences, are going to have to be legally controlled and regulated, so I'd see some sort of role for an ombudsman, industry codes of conduct, even litigation but accountability is the key thing.

    Its not automatically accountable if its state owned or directed any more than privately owned and directed, democratic controls of the government by the public, or even politicians, are relatively weak, as is the opposite idea of consumer sovereignty.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    Pure libertarian socialism of course would be unattainable, as some other members noted earlier, as it's basically a form of anarchy that is unachievable, but we can still apply some tenets without a strong central authority becoming involved. Instead of state-controlled means of production and distribution, we should aim for more worker-controlled means of production and distribution. I think that's closer to the original vision of socialism anyway. There are many good examples of successful employee/worker owned businesses. Technically these entities are still operating in a capitalist system, but they see overall better results, pay, quality of life, and benefits for their employees. Putting businesses under state ownership will not curb the corruption that we see in capitalist systems. Corrupt opportunists always find a way to take advantage of systems, whether in capitalist or socialist economies. That's the problem with strong central administrations.


    I think the best way to achieve something close to the libertarian socialist vision is to implement socialism within a democratic model.



    Participatory economics - Wikipedia
    Never say never.

    I'm sure back in its day the likelihood that the divine right of kings, witch burnings and inquisitions would pass into history seemed pretty remote.

    Anyway, ParEcon is one set of ideas, which is good I think, although personally I like some of the thinking about universal basic incomes, Henry George's ideas, Robert Dell's Socialism and Personal Liberty, are better as they permit greater diversity of initiatives or experiments than ParEcon might. Like you could have a mixed economy in which a water utility is run as a balanced job complex as outlined in the ParEcon theory, the local book depository is an independent co-op, the post office is run by a mutual society etc.

    I definitely dont believe that some sort of arrangement with a bunch of commissars or other officials running around ensuring that all business fits a certain straight jacket and obeys the one party in power (while the rest are in prison) would be productive, whether its labelled socialist, capitalist or other.

    UBIs are the only sort of arrangement that I think would allow individuals the freedom to walk out on bad working conditions, to avoid dictatorial or tyrannical abuses simply being privatized in the shape of business management, private ownership or even some sort of devolved workers control. Its also the only sort of thing that I think would permit the kind of utopian arrangement that Marx predicted as the end of communist development, ie that you could perform three or four different jobs in a single day, I think he said fishing, writing/critiquing/building but I dont remember rightly.

    Like I personally like a lot of guild socialist and council communist ideas but I can also see how they'd wind up abused or the restructuring of firms along those lines could just fail to achieve the desired ends.

    I do think the best thing about GS ideas was that GDH Cole saw it all as being about a kind of life long learning of self-government, people learning by doing, in their everyday lives/workplace, instead of being restricted to casting a ballot one day a year for this or that relatively unaccountable career politician.

    Also it speaks to what socialism (or capitalism for that matter) is supposed to be about, some people say its about equality, redistribution of wealth, all that sort of stuff but for me if its not about putting a final end to servility and freedom then its not about anything, its some kind of ruse.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mysterious Stranger View Post
    Any sane person? I wouldnt know what one looked like even if it did actually exist. Which it doesn't.
    I do think you can get sane individuals, even if you have an insane society.

    They dont last long without experiencing some sort of breakdown though.

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