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  1. #31
    Member Sh*ttyKarmaKid's Avatar
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    Yeah except he IS focused on objective reality, he doesn't always act in an adviser capacity (Every time he does, it's simply a role he plays, and he manipulates people he's advising into practically doing his bidding), and he's not really always as subtle as he thinks he is.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sh*ttyKarmaKid View Post
    Yeah except he IS focused on objective reality, he doesn't always act in an adviser capacity (Every time he does, it's simply a role he plays, and he manipulates people he's advising into practically doing his bidding), and he's not really always as subtle as he thinks he is.
    Do you notice how I'm in your face while disagreeing? That's an ENTJ.
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  3. #33
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sh*ttyKarmaKid View Post
    I don't think he's an ENTJ, I've seen him typed as at least four or five different types, but I think that ESTJ seems more likely for him.
    And that's why everybody thinks there is no hero ENTJ but I do think he is a healthy ENTJ because most of ENTJ who is displayed are unhealthy ones.
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  4. #34
    Member Sh*ttyKarmaKid's Avatar
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    There actually are a few, I'd say Nick Fury, Peggy Carter, Soldier: 76 (Overwatch), Princess Leia, Erwin Smith (Attack on Titan), Princess Bubblegum, maybe even Doctor Strange...

  5. #35
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    Peggy Carter is INFP 100%
    Nick Furry ESTJ
    Leia ExTJ (unsure)
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  6. #36

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    Hetty Lange from NCIS LA is arguably an eNTJ. Some say she's an INTJ but you'll notice how she's protective of innocence. That's an ENTJ characteristic.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    Oops, I messed up and was thinking of Tyrion, not Tywin. Tywin's an ESTJ. Way too traditionally rigid to be an ENTJ. It's all about the greatness of House Lannister and even though he despised Tyrion, any insult by anyone else to Tyrion, is an insult to House Lannister. That's logically inconsistent and hypocritical, considering his consistent abuse of Tyrion.
    1.) Yeah, Tyrion is an ENTP.

    2.) I think that Tywin's preoccupation with greatness and his despising Tyrion are more so rooted in (inferior) Fi values and aspirations as opposed to anything involving Si. In the books, Tywin's father was incompetent, inefficient and a complete laughingstock--he was seen as a "toothless lion" and brought shame on their house. Subsequently, everything Tywin did (even his unparalleled cruelty at times) was done to restore honor, prestige and respect (via fear) to his family's name.

    And Tyrion is despised for four reasons: 1.) It was widely speculated that he was the illegitimate, ill begotten bastard of the Mad King and Tywin's wife, Joanna, whom the Mad King allegedly raped. 2.) Tyrion's birth resulted in the death of his mother and Tywin's wife, Joanna, the only person Tywin ever truly loved. 3.) Tyrion is a disfigured little person who doesn't rise to the glorious, "golden" image of his other family members. 4.) Tyrion (earlier on) was a bit of a rabble rousing, womanizing drunkard that reminded Tywin of his own disgraced father (and for an even deeper interpretation, himself, which I address later on). Altogether, these things connect Tyrion to Tywin's underlying fear and hatred of powerlessness and weakness > Fi.

    3.) And the inferior function's (Fi) underlying, subconscious agenda (being powerless but not wanting to be powerless) fuels the dominant function (Te) to consciously conceive and actualize said agenda (to be powerful or empowered), while the auxiliary + tertiary functions serve to make it happen. So then the question becomes, what does Tywin use to carry out his Te agenda? Does he rely on tradition (Si), in that he falls back on what has always worked according to his past experiences or does he look towards the future (Ni), and does whatever is necessary in order to get there. I concede that a legitimate argument can be made for both. In favor of Si, it could be argued that Tywin faithfully relies on extreme brutality and mercilessness because those things are "tried and true" and have always worked well for him. But it could also be argued that Tywin has always been able to intuit the correct path forward (Ni) and simply utilized brutality and mercilessness as the most effective means in materializing his goals.

    But let's also remember that Tywin repeatedly reprimanded Tyrion for his love of whores and as soon as Tyrion was sentenced to death, Tywin took Tyrion's lover Shea (a former whore) into his bed. And it's also been speculated (because of certain clues) that Tywin was also an avid whore monger, though he was very discreet about his habits. This just leads me to believe that who Tywin actually was and what he actually stood for, differed from what he thought he needed to be and how he should act in order to accomplish his most important goal, not merely maintaining but strengthening/empowering his family's name and its correlating honor/prestige. High Si users are cognitively compelled towards upholding a certain high ground and unimpeachable standard (by the confines of the traditions they subscribe to/have been indoctrinated with) and so whore mongering would seem to be a violation of that, at the very least according to what Tywin purported to believe. But if Ni perceives that "walking a certain walk" is crucial in attaining its objectives, in this case, possessing/evoking/emanating "power," then it's more understandable that, in all actuality, Tywin is totes cool with whores, so long as everything is discreet and a certain image is maintained. I always thought that Si is inherently traditionalist and duty bound whereas Ni could be so or at least look like it if deemed necessary for goal fulfillment.

    @Sh*ttyKarmaKid

    Here are two good definitions of the respective loops:

    "ESTJ Te-Ne loop: An ESTJ in an Ne-Te loop comes up with a million possibilities and tries to put these all into action without taking time to consider what is realistic, or consider structures or past lessons that would guide them. They become very externally driven, wanting external validation and recognition. They will become unable to settle and focus on a single plan, instead becoming stressed out as they are pulled in a million different directions."

    "ENTJ Te-Se loop: An ENTJ in a Te-Se loop becomes power hunger, grabbing at anything that can bolster their image or control without considering the sensibility behind these actions, obsessing over ways to bolster this image through material goods and sensory experiences. They become overly concerned with “doing” all of the time, unable to let themselves stop to take a break. They become forceful, aggressive, insistent upon taking action whether or not it hurts those around them."

    Sorry dude but the Te-Se loops sounds a helluva lot more like Tywin than the Te-Ne loop does.

    1.) Despite the protests of Cersei and Tyrion, Tywin aggressively and insistently forces them into arrangements (with a Tyrell and Sansa Stark, respectively) in order to put limitations on the Tyrell's ascent to dominance. Talk about power hungry.

    2.) After Tyrion learns of the Red Wedding, Tyrion remarks that the Northerners will never forget such an egregious act and Tywin responds with "good," in believing that such brutality would deter acts of rebellion in the future.

    3.) I'd call an old man bedding his son's whore-friend to most definitely be a sensory experience, and of the flagrant and reckless variety. And to add, on the show at least, there were many a scene where Tywin was pouring Sweet wine not only into the glasses of others but of his as well.

    And I agree with @bechimo that Littlefinger is an INTJ and all of the "needs" you mentioned could very well simply be Se grip. Se manifests more intensely (by way of over indulgence) in Inferior position and a bit more naturally and relaxed in the tertiary position.

    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    As far as Ragnar's concerned, he made a lot of mistakes, relative to forecasting and strategy. It was brain dead obvious King Egbert would shaft him, once the majority of the Viking fighting force left the farmers. Lothbrok also failed to scout Paris. His tactics were that of some planning but more in-the-moment innovation and heavy reliance on the fighting abilities of the Vikings. That and his inability to rein in his lust and addiction. These are heavy Se elements, not indicative of Ni aux but are indicative of Ni inferior. Rollo was just a dumber version of Ragnar. And this is coming from a major fan of the show since Day 1.
    An INTJ, an ENTJ and an ESTP might all successfully reach a certain objective, but chances are that the INTJ's plan was the most airtight and encountered the least amount of hiccups along the way because INTJs tend to be better long term planners than the other two. And the same is true for the ENTJ in comparison to the ESTP--my point is that the ENTJ is not infallible because though there is usually a plan before leaping, there is still an impulse to leap and act and that plan could be ill conceived or the action poorly timed. The ESTP is more inclined to plan as he leaps. Dom Se is all about acting now. And Ragnar pretty much always had a plan, regardless of how successful or smoothly enacted it ended up being.

    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    Ivar the Boneless is an ENTJ, albeit an insane one.
    Agreed.

  8. #38
    Member Sh*ttyKarmaKid's Avatar
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    [/I'd call an old man bedding his son's whore-friend to most definitely be a sensory experience, and of the flagrant and reckless variety. And to add, on the show at least, there were many a scene where Tywin was pouring Sweet wine not only into the glasses of others but of his as well. QUOTE]
    Yeah, because an ESTJ couldn't possibly have any sexual needs at all. It's not even really reckless, he believes his son is getting executed first thing in the morning, so why not shag his ex-lover as a final insult. Not to mention, this is a man powerful enough to ruin or take a life of anyone trying to spread rumors of his possible indulgence in prostitutes. Also, don't know where you're going with the whole wine thing, I don't think that's a clear presentation of any cognitive function.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sh*ttyKarmaKid View Post
    Yeah except he IS focused on objective reality, he doesn't always act in an adviser capacity (Every time he does, it's simply a role he plays, and he manipulates people he's advising into practically doing his bidding), and he's not really always as subtle as he thinks he is.
    That's because he has tertiary Fe. And why do you think he is focused on objective reality? As you go on to say, he's behind the scenes, manipulating others. Sure, he understands objective reality but that is not the same as being focused on it. The implication that an ENTJ could bear being kept behind the scenes in their own master plan creates a hilarious imagery. Te is an extroverted judging function, dominant Te wants to be seen and regarded for it's judgement. Littlefinger wants power, but he doesn't need to be seen with it. In fact, he practically prides himself with being the hidden puppet master early on in the series. I can see a possible argument for INTJ, but not ENTJ.
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Lion View Post
    2.) I think that Tywin's preoccupation with greatness and his despising Tyrion are more so rooted in (inferior) Fi values and aspirations as opposed to anything involving Si. In the books, Tywin's father was incompetent, inefficient and a complete laughingstock--he was seen as a "toothless lion" and brought shame on their house. Subsequently, everything Tywin did (even his unparalleled cruelty at times) was done to restore honor, prestige and respect (via fear) to his family's name.
    Now that I have more time and energy to reply, House greatness is not a Fi value. An ENTJ would self-revere over traditional house revere (Si). Christ, you're extremely verbose for an ENTJ. We're usually concise.

    And Tyrion is despised for four reasons: 1.) It was widely speculated that he was the illegitimate, ill begotten bastard of the Mad King and Tywin's wife, Joanna, whom the Mad King allegedly raped. 2.) Tyrion's birth resulted in the death of his mother and Tywin's wife, Joanna, the only person Tywin ever truly loved. 3.) Tyrion is a disfigured little person who doesn't rise to the glorious, "golden" image of his other family members. 4.) Tyrion (earlier on) was a bit of a rabble rousing, womanizing drunkard that reminded Tywin of his own disgraced father (and for an even deeper interpretation, himself, which I address later on). Altogether, these things connect Tyrion to Tywin's underlying fear and hatred of powerlessness and weakness > Fi.
    It's #2. The show and the books openly expressed this.

    3.) And the inferior function's (Fi) underlying, subconscious agenda (being powerless but not wanting to be powerless) fuels the dominant function (Te) to consciously conceive and actualize said agenda (to be powerful or empowered), while the auxiliary + tertiary functions serve to make it happen.
    The dominant and inferior functions are in opposition. They don't work together.

    But let's also remember that Tywin repeatedly reprimanded Tyrion for his love of whores and as soon as Tyrion was sentenced to death, Tywin took Tyrion's lover Shea (a former whore) into his bed. And it's also been speculated (because of certain clues) that Tywin was also an avid whore monger, though he was very discreet about his habits. This just leads me to believe that who Tywin actually was and what he actually stood for, differed from what he thought he needed to be and how he should act in order to accomplish his most important goal, not merely maintaining but strengthening/empowering his family's name and its correlating honor/prestige. High Si users are cognitively compelled towards upholding a certain high ground and unimpeachable standard (by the confines of the traditions they subscribe to/have been indoctrinated with) and so whore mongering would seem to be a violation of that, at the very least according to what Tywin purported to believe. But if Ni perceives that "walking a certain walk" is crucial in attaining its objectives, in this case, possessing/evoking/emanating "power," then it's more understandable that, in all actuality, Tywin is totes cool with whores, so long as everything is discreet and a certain image is maintained. I always thought that Si is inherently traditionalist and duty bound whereas Ni could be so or at least look like it if deemed necessary for goal fulfillment.
    Hypocrisy is a well known Si phenomenon since it's not focused on the big picture, lost among the trees. Look to Republicans and SJs.

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