The Conflict over Anakin's Personality Type Ends Here and Now

[erg]

Ignoring strange references to not liking sand and other such poorly written dialogue, don't episodes II and III portray Anakin's fall to the dark side in a convincing way?

I would hardly call the dramatics of an angsty teenager with an sponge for a brain, a convincing explanation for Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader. But to each his own.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Ignoring strange references to not liking sand and other such poorly written dialogue, don't episodes II and III portray Anakin's fall to the dark side in a convincing way?

I didn't have any issue until I thought about it more, but there's something really unsatisfying about it. It happened just because he had a dream? I know his visions were accurate in the past, but it would have worked better if they bothered to set up that she was actually in danger in some way. It wouldn't be that hard to do. Make it part of some plot by the Emperor but it looks like the Jedi are behind it.

 

[Mal12345]

I didn't have any issue until I thought about it more, but there's something really unsatisfying about it. It happened just because he had a dream? I know his visions were accurate in the past, but it would have worked better if they bothered to set up that she was actually in danger in some way. It wouldn't be that hard to do. Make it part of some plot by the Emperor but it looks like the Jedi are behind it.

Not if the dream is a prophetic dream.

 

[Mal12345]

I would hardly call the dramatics of an angsty teenager with an sponge for a brain, a convincing explanation for Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader. But to each his own.

Nevertheless, it describes a typical teenager from the American viewpoint. You have the repressive Jedi faith, a love interest in danger, and the future Emperor disguised as a force for Good who will lead the love interest to safety if Anakin obeys his will. Then in the end - oops, sorry Anakin, you force-choked her and she died. The lie of blaming Anakin put the final nail in his coffin.

 

[Jaguar]

^I don't talk to you.

^ Sure you do.^

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

It's relevant for comparing how different writers develop the same character different ways, such as the two Kirks, the first from the Original Series and the second from the Star Trek movies, especially the last three. Kirk was very serious in the Original Series, but 20 years later he was more relaxed as if his enneagram wings had flipped.

Not really. Shatner has more or less admitted he just plays characters as extensions of himself. This was never more the case than it was in his portrayal of Kirk. The character aged and mellowed out with the actor--Kirk is simply an exaggerated version of the Shat. My only issue is the stark difference between the Kirks of Star Treks II-V vs the Kirk of Star Trek VI. Kirk is portrayed in VI as a somewhat hawkish, hardened career military man who has become conservative and mistrustful of the Klingons, and this doesn't completely line up with the more mellow, drinking-with-Captain Klaa version seen especially in Star Trek V. The Kirk character returns to his Shatnerized form in Generations, IMO.

VI Kirk is just the TOS/TMP Kirk minus the character development from II-V, almost as if the Kirk we meet in Generations has experienced a different backstory than the Kirk we meet in VI. Generations is kind of a shit film but it notably begins a few months after VI, so I think there's good reason to compare these two Kirks.

Don;t mistake me, I'm not bashing VI. I find it to be one of the best, but his characterization simply seems off a bit.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

There was never a ton of backstory or character development with Vader in the OT. A lot has been fleshed out in the prequels, EU/legends material, and fans' own assumptions. We have to take a pure approach and just examine the films.

Regardless of how poorly written, we have to rely on the prequels if we want all the information.

I believe he is a 6w5 in both jedi and sith form; none of this horseshit about him changing types after his fall to the dark, please.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Ignoring strange references to not liking sand and other such poorly written dialogue, don't episodes II and III portray Anakin's fall to the dark side in a convincing way?

Not 100% convincing, but yes, it portrays it adequately. He felt good reason to mistrust the jedi and Palpatine was a master manipulator who frequently fed Anakin little bits of advice and encouragement to feed his ego, build attachments, and further his path toward the dark side.

 

[highlander]

ISFP 6

 

[uumlau]

I find this to be a good interpretation of Anakin's going over to the dark side to become Vader:

tl; dw version - He saw the hypocrisy of the Jedi Code and that was the deep underlying reason for his change of heart. He changes sides when Mace Windu tries to kill Palpatine.

I would say that for the most part, he's a counterphobic 6. That gives him a very INFJ feel, to me. ISFP also makes sense and explains his penchant for spectacular heroics, but I don't think that fits Vader's persona.

The Clone Wars series depicts him as a very Te-dom Enneagram 8 kind of character: ENTJ even. He's reckless and daring, but there's always a method to his madness and his strategies usually work in a manic Napoleonic way.

The Clones Wars is official canon by the way, so that while the Extended Universe doesn't apply, Clone Wars does.

So, how to synthesize this?

The main thing that suggests INFJ/ISFP-ish to me is his rank emotionality. Te doms aren't like that, complaining that everything is unfair, etc., as they usually bull through whatever is in their way.

But what about an ENTJ under stress. I dunno who here has known any young ENTJs, but I have, and as kids and young adults, they tend to often be remarkably whiny and always getting into trouble, because they try doing things before considering consequences. With inferior Fi, when their plans are foiled, they're as apt to whine about being unfairly punished as they are to Ni-intuit what they did wrong and not make that mistake again.

So perhaps this kind of arc. He starts off as a whiny kid, but he's adventurous enough to build a pod racer and race it on occasion, getting into enough trouble to maybe even get killed. He gets inducted into the Jedi and has a lot of that whining disciplined out of him. He is still often very rash, but it is always in the name of getting something done and fixing things right away, without considering consequences. That's a Te kind of rashness. Then we have the Clone Wars, and he gradually becomes very adept and quite reknowned. He is still regarded as reckless, but he's skilled and intuitive enough to make his reckless plans work. Very ENTJ. He also tends to take lots of personal risks, personally joining the action. Very "inner ESFP" (Se-Fi). Very adventurous. Towards the end of the Clone Wars and the start of Episode III, his inferior Fi is getting triggered again, especially since Palpatine is psychically pushing all his emotional buttons. Remember that Palpatine knows about his mother, and the Sand People, and Padme, and the unborn children. Push-push-push. Then Mace Windu deliberately violates the Jedi Code to kill his long-time friend and mentor, without a trial. Betrayal. This totally triggers his Enneagram 6 hot button of loyalty. He becomes Darth Vader. All of his Fi pain is turned into the rage of the dark side of the Force.

ENTJ, Enneagram 6, sp/sx

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure of this arc, but it sorta-kinda fits the canon, so far.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I find this to be a good interpretation of Anakin's going over to the dark side to become Vader:

tl; dw version - He saw the hypocrisy of the Jedi Code and that was the deep underlying reason for his change of heart. He changes sides when Mace Windu tries to kill Palpatine.

I would say that for the most part, he's a counterphobic 6. That gives him a very INFJ feel, to me. ISFP also makes sense and explains his penchant for spectacular heroics, but I don't think that fits Vader's persona.

The Clone Wars series depicts him as a very Te-dom Enneagram 8 kind of character: ENTJ even. He's reckless and daring, but there's always a method to his madness and his strategies usually work in a manic Napoleonic way.

The Clones Wars is official canon by the way, so that while the Extended Universe doesn't apply, Clone Wars does.

So, how to synthesize this?

The main thing that suggests INFJ/ISFP-ish to me is his rank emotionality. Te doms aren't like that, complaining that everything is unfair, etc., as they usually bull through whatever is in their way.

But what about an ENTJ under stress. I dunno who here has known any young ENTJs, but I have, and as kids and young adults, they tend to often be remarkably whiny and always getting into trouble, because they try doing things before considering consequences. With inferior Fi, when their plans are foiled, they're as apt to whine about being unfairly punished as they are to Ni-intuit what they did wrong and not make that mistake again.

So perhaps this kind of arc. He starts off as a whiny kid, but he's adventurous enough to build a pod racer and race it on occasion, getting into enough trouble to maybe even get killed. He gets inducted into the Jedi and has a lot of that whining disciplined out of him. He is still often very rash, but it is always in the name of getting something done and fixing things right away, without considering consequences. That's a Te kind of rashness.

Interesting, but isn't that more Se? I thought Te was all about meticulous, well-thought out plans. After all, isn't that something ESTJs and ENTJS are supposed to have in common?

 

[uumlau]

Interesting, but isn't that more Se? I thought Te was all about meticulous, well-thought out plans. After all, isn't that something ESTJs and ENTJS are supposed to have in common?

ESTJs tend to be meticulous and stick to what works. ENTJs are more like gamblers. Initially very bad gamblers, remarkably overconfident gamblers, but improving over time. It's why I used the Napoleon analogy. He was very successful militarily because he knew how to take risks with his forces.

Also, you might be thinking of INTJs. INTJs are Ni-Te to the ENTJs Te-Ni. INTJs sit and think about things, and THEN they act, once they're sure. ENTJs are the other way around. They act. And then they might think about things. It's difficult to prove things to them: they often have to try and fail in order to believe that they had a bad idea. But with Ni backing them up, their ideas gradually become very good. But they're usually going to act first, then reflect.

This video popped up in my feed. It gives a good synopsis of what the Clone Wars series is like without really spoiling anything. I agree with most of the opinions expressed.

 

[highlander]

Actually [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] I can see that making sense. It's the whiny thing that was throwing me off. There is also E6 in the unhealthy side...

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

ESTJs tend to be meticulous and stick to what works. ENTJs are more like gamblers. Initially very bad gamblers, remarkably overconfident gamblers, but improving over time. It's why I used the Napoleon analogy. He was very successful militarily because he knew how to take risks with his forces.

Also, you might be thinking of INTJs. INTJs are Ni-Te to the ENTJs Te-Ni. INTJs sit and think about things, and THEN they act, once they're sure. ENTJs are the other way around. They act. And then they might think about things. It's difficult to prove things to them: they often have to try and fail in order to believe that they had a bad idea. But with Ni backing them up, their ideas gradually become very good. But they're usually going to act first, then reflect.

Well, there goes my whole mental model of what ENTJs are like. Welp.

 

[uumlau]

Well, there goes my whole mental model of what ENTJs are like. Welp.

Oh, they can totally come across as bossy and bullies. I'm just filling in a lot of the blanks that the stereotypes don't fill in. The "gambling" part is difficult to discern, because they express themselves in such stridently certain terms.

Yeah, it kind of surprised me, too.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oh, they can totally come across as bossy and bullies. I'm just filling in a lot of the blanks that the stereotypes don't fill in. The "gambling" part is difficult to discern, because they express themselves in such stridently certain terms.

Yeah, it kind of surprised me, too.

I mean, yeah, there's that, but I always thought of them as master planners.

 

[uumlau]

I mean, yeah, there's that, but I always thought of them as master planners.

Let's just say that to an INTJ, they look like anything BUT "master planners". "Mastermind" is more the INTJ label. Not that we're any more skilled in that regard, but we spend a LOT more time planning and tend to avoid risk more assiduously. ENTJs tend to often be more successful than INTJs precisely because they take risks.

 

[Tilt]

Oh, they can totally come across as bossy and bullies. I'm just filling in a lot of the blanks that the stereotypes don't fill in. The "gambling" part is difficult to discern, because they express themselves in such stridently certain terms.

Yeah, it kind of surprised me, too.

The tertiary Se does some weird shit in ENXJs. lol. I have done some risky impulsive shit just cuz I wanted things to be resolved NOW. Patience is usually not a strength... that tends to go to the IXTJs (of the Js) from what I noticed. I am guessing it's similar for ENTJs.

 

[Kanra Jest]

His Clone Wars persona makes me think to ENTJ a lot. Which is more purer than his movie version that's altered by the actor's performance.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Let's just say that to an INTJ, they look like anything BUT "master planners". "Mastermind" is more the INTJ label. Not that we're any more skilled in that regard, but we spend a LOT more time planning and tend to avoid risk more assiduously. ENTJs tend to often be more successful than INTJs precisely because they take risks.

Hmm, I saw some stuff that had Palpatine typed as an ENTJ and Vader as an INTJ. Judging by this, it seems like the reverse is the case. Palpatine is the master planner, obviously, working over a very long time span. I thought Palpatine's arc in the prequels worked a lot better, as it were.