[NT] Hilary Clinton Is An INTJ Enneagram 3

[SD45T-2]

lol, so Trump that we might need to call ESTPS, "the Donald"

Yeah, I mean the first two paragraphs are about winning.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

He doesnt even match the negatives. That article contains why i pin myself as eSTP sometimes. Only i do it from sizing up people, not the article.

Had to keep this going didnt you

He completely matches the negatives.

Can become morose or even antagonistic in situations offering little promise of advantage or the possibility to "do something."
May be manipulative, taking advantage of other people's weaknesses for their own gain.
May be unwilling or unable to plan anything in advance themselves, or to follow other's careful plans.
Can be overconfident of their own cunning or ability, ignoring problems which eventually catch up with them on their blind side.
May find it difficult or be actually unwilling to follow through where an ongoing commitment is expected.
In relationship situations may be overbearing, demanding and/or uncaring of the feelings of their partner.
When alone or in reduced circumstances may be subject to dark or morbid feelings about themselves.
May be unable to maintain employment for any length of time, losing credibility with potential employers or clients by job hopping.
May become so engrossed in challenging activities that they lose all sense of proportion, neglecting themselves and their relationships.
Without challenges of their own, may become focused on the behavior of others, particularly that of family or employees, insisting that they live up to what the ESTP sees as the proper code or level of accomplishment.

These are the ESTP problem areas. Donald looks like most of these. Bolded are ones I have definitely seen, the underlined is one that is likely true.....

Both ESTPs and ESTJs are both action oriented. They look superficially similar as typical American males. But the ESTP is typically fitting the used car salesman ideal, a great talker, great reading people, and willing to exploit the situation, without much regard to consequences.

The ESTJ is more efficient and controlled. They excel at mastering institutions and structures. They are much more organized.

The Donald is very ESTP. He is very "in the moment". He jumps into business opportunities with little planning and thought (Trump U, Trump Water, Trump Vitamins Trump Shuttle, etc....). He is just a ESTP born to a wealthy father.....

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I dont get how people can look at her speeches and watch her reactions, her responses, how she speaks, combined with what she speaks about and pin it as INTJ.

Maybe her older stuff, but i honeslty dont see tertiary Fi, i see Fe and Ni big time in her speeches. I dont see Te either in her speeches.

Her use of her eyes, her use of her hands, her use of all her reactions are very much Fe. Her tone. If you watch Fi and Fe there is a very distinct diference between expression from internally and expression to the external.

Maybe my Se is to strong. She doesnt light up much internally, she projects emotions onto the world. She pushes her Ni through her facial features, her gestures, etc.

I have never looked at her or heard her and said...yup, that sounds and looks just like an INTJ

No, not Fe. She is trying to fake Fe. She doesn't connect to people naturally and is trying to imitate a style that is unnatural to her.

My ISTJ father does that. His uses Fe type words, but without emotion or substance, as well as guilt tripping and other emotional manipulation. They are just tools he picked up years ago.

Hillary isn't natural and admits she isn't a "natural politician" Everything about her is poll tested and practiced.

 

[Poki]

No, not Fe. She is trying to fake Fe. She doesn't connect to people naturally and is trying to imitate a style that is unnatural to her.

My ISTJ father does that. His uses Fe type words, but without emotion or substance, as well as guilt tripping and other emotional manipulation. They are just tools he picked up years ago.

Hillary isn't natural and admits she isn't a "natural politician" Everything about her is poll tested and practiced.

Then where is Fi in regard to sensory information. I wasnt including the words itself as much because speeches are pre-written, modified, and tweaked based on affect. I had listened to speeches, as well as one-on-one interviews.


I understand that Fi can learn Fe, but its obviously faked. Its not natural, though if done right you can take away from the fact that it appears fake because people get stuck on the affect and miss the fake. The want is real, the desire is real, they may be able to find a way to act it, but the flow is not natural. It appears abrupt, choppy, etc.

 

[HongDou]

Whatever type she is, she needs to keep Beyoncé's name out of her filthy mouth.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Then where is Fi in regard to sensory information. I wasnt including the words itself as much because speeches are pre-written, modified, and tweaked based on affect. I had listened to speeches, as well as one-on-one interviews.


I understand that Fi can learn Fe, but its obviously faked. Its not natural, though if done right you can take away from the fact that it appears fake because people get stuck on the affect and miss the fake. The want is real, the desire is real, they may be able to find a way to act it, but the flow is not natural. It appears abrupt, choppy, etc.

Hillary's Fi is very poorly developed, but shows up occasionally.

The hidden introverted feeling of the extraverted thinking type establishes strong invisible loyalties. Such people are among the most faithful of all friends, even though they may only write at Christmas. They are absolutely faithful in their feelings, but one has to move towards it to get to know of its existence. . . . [But] unconscious and undeveloped feeling is barbaric and absolute, and therefore sometimes hidden destructive fanaticism suddenly bursts out of the extraverted thinking type.

[ENTJ] The Form of the Inferior Function: Fi

The three manifestations of inferior Fi are hypersensitivity to inner states, outbursts of emotion, and fear of feeling.

Examples of hypsensitivity to inner states

Another ENTJ described feeling like a victim persecuted, unappreciated, and used. I don't see things clearly and I can't seem to think. I take things personally and am hypersensitive. I will say something without thinking, then become defensive and feel threatened.

An ESTJ made this observation: I find myself taking a martyr role, alone and unloved, totally unappreciated. Then I shut down. An ENTJ described being particularly sensitive to any signs of being excluded from important roles. When that happens, I feel that my contributions are not being valued. And another ENTJ described feeling isolated or excluded and having a sense that people don't respect me, especially people I respect.

On outbursts of emotions, Hillary’s temper is famous. Bill had a black eye after one bimbo eruption.

Of course, there is this.....

On fear of feeling:

To fend off the feared result, initial attempts involve maintaining cool and detached effectiveness and objectivity. Casual observers will not detect the intense inner battle for control. More careful observation, however, may reveal uncharacteristic silence, withdrawal, moodiness, or flat and depressed affect. Men and women of both types typically report becoming uncharacteristically quiet and withdrawn. An ESTJ described feeling a swirling in the pit of my stomach and a desperate attempt to figure out why and to define my reaction logically.

Because the Extraverted Thinking type has few resources for communicating what is going on inside, potential helpers may remain largely unaware of any distress, even when the person is in serious trouble. The despair, sense of isolation, and feeling of worthlessness may become so extreme that the person may become severely depressed, sometimes requiring medication or hospitalization. Acquaintances and colleagues may be surprised to learn that such an episode has occurred because until final control is lost, the ESTJ or ENTJ may appear fairly normal. I'm calm on the outside, in control, very logical, solve problems, yet it ties me up inside, said an ENTJ. This manifestation of the inferior is an exaggeration of the dominant Introverted Feeling types economy of emotional expression.

Two Extraverted Thinking types described their experiences with their inferior functions in these ways after their episodes had run their course:
I became overly sensitive and tried to cover it with biting sarcasm. My energy was focused inside and I felt shaky. I wanted to be alone. I put on a front of being a strong soldier, but it was really only a protective shell to hide my vulnerability. I was different in being very negative. Everything appeared bleak. I was disoriented and aggressive. I talked to myself more. I got emotional (angry or sad, tearful or despondent). In very bad cases, I even contemplated suicide.

So, again Hillary's Fi seems to conform to this idea.....

 

[Coriolis]

Clinton seems way too slick in public appearances for me to believe she could possibly be an INTJ.

Slick? Usually I hear her described as stiff, awkward, boring, especially when contrasted with her husband who was a natural campaigner. The fact that her presentation is as polished as you describe can be attributed first to her age (live, learn, experience), and second to what has probably been alot of effort on her part to work on this.

I have never looked at her or heard her and said...yup, that sounds and looks just like an INTJ

Nor I, but she is definitely not an NFJ. In fact, I don't think she is an F of any sort. I do see Fi, but she could easily be STJ.

 

[Tater]

i still think she's an entj. you can see her eyes light up when she's got the approval of her audience. she loves being the center of attention and the energy that comes with that. ime, intjs and infjs usually run from public attention like the plague.

 

[ceecee]

Slick? Usually I hear her described as stiff, awkward, boring, especially when contrasted with her husband who was a natural campaigner. The fact that her presentation is as polished as you describe can be attributed first to her age (live, learn, experience), and second to what has probably been alot of effort on her part to work on this.


Nor I, but she is definitely not an NFJ. In fact, I don't think she is an F of any sort. I do see Fi, but she could easily be STJ.

I think she put a great deal of effort to sand down the rough edges on her speeches. She is not an F and I don't hold that against her in any way - it's very satisfying to see someone other than the stereotypical personality being successful. She doesn't need try to summon Fe and fake it to be like everyone else, I wish she wouldn't. Leave that to the people who do manipulation best.

I won't bother quoting but it's laughable that anyone claims to know what goes on in her head.

 

[meowington]

She doesn't need try to summon Fe and fake it to be like everyone else, I wish she wouldn't. Leave that to the people who do manipulation best.

Why is it that so many T types seem to associate Fe with manipulation ? I know enough T types who can be equally manipulative. Just in different ways. I mean when I read your post it comes across as Fe = Fake to you.

 

[ceecee]

Why is it that so many T types seem to associate Fe with manipulation ? I know enough T types who can be equally manipulative. Just in different ways. I mean when I read your post it comes across as Fe = Fake to you.

No I said I don't want Hillary to fake Fe, it's almost a basement function as it is for all INTJ's. Not that she can't or hasn't developed it - it's just not her natural approach. Politics is all manipulation. Barack Obama gets typed as an ENFJ all over the place. You don't think he doesn't manipulate the shit out of people and situations? Having lived with an ENFJ for a long time, I'm not saying all manipulation is bad. I'm saying it can useful and they know how to use it.

 

[highlander]

All estp i know flip betwen fun and get shit done. They dont enjoy the drama that trump creates and seems to strive in. Trump is dominant judge, not dominant perception.

He jumps into things as a judger, not a preciever. Thats why he talks out of his ass in a judgemental manner. Their judgements arent as shallow as trumps are which are a trait of ESTJ because they are quick to judge. As they learn their judgement will change.

You know, I think you're right. These are good points.

Clinton seems way too slick in public appearances for me to believe she could possibly be an INTJ.
Clinton ESTJ -3

My vote in other thread was ENTJ 3.

So you think someone who's been in the public eye for more than 30 years with background as an attorney wouldn't know how to articulate herself regardless as to personality type?

 

[highlander]

He completely matches the negatives.



These are the ESTP problem areas. Donald looks like most of these. Bolded are ones I have definitely seen, the underlined is one that is likely true.....

Both ESTPs and ESTJs are both action oriented. They look superficially similar as typical American males. But the ESTP is typically fitting the used car salesman ideal, a great talker, great reading people, and willing to exploit the situation, without much regard to consequences.

The ESTJ is more efficient and controlled. They excel at mastering institutions and structures. They are much more organized.

The Donald is very ESTP. He is very "in the moment". He jumps into business opportunities with little planning and thought (Trump U, Trump Water, Trump Vitamins Trump Shuttle, etc....). He is just a ESTP born to a wealthy father.....

I saw an interview with his butler of many years who runs an antique shop now. When asked what the White House would be like with him in charge, he responded that it would be very efficient - like a well oiled machine.

 

[Virtual ghost]

So you think someone who's been in the public eye for more than 30 years with background as an attorney wouldn't know how to articulate herself regardless as to personality type?

I see it as the other way around: would such a career attract INTJ ?
However the only real reason why I say ENTJ is because she looks to me as someone who has more developed Se than Fi.


But don't place bets on my opinion since I am not American and I am not "expert" on this woman. (and the same is worth for meowington I presume)

 

[meowington]

So you think someone who's been in the public eye for more than 30 years with background as an attorney wouldn't know how to articulate herself regardless as to personality type?

Yes definitely. But her public speech pattern is so fluent/ad hoc/extravert that I think it's her natural ability.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

As for trump...i go back and forth between ESTJ and ESTP. I dont see the playful side of an ESTP that i see in all the ones i know.have. he is also huge on categorization. He reminds me of my unhealthy ESTJ ex father in law.

I think both our candidates are unhealthy versions of their type and thats why we have so many issues with them. I do go back and forth as i do see alot of actions that scream ESTP. There is just something off compared to the ESTPs i know when they hit the same stage of frustratex and unhealthy as him.

It's funny you don't see his playful side. I think he half jokes his way through his campaign. He is playing and having fun, too. It's simultaneous.

The main reason I don't see ESTJ in Trump (I have dated 2 in LTR and one of those was an ESTJ 3) is one big characteristic missing...is playing by ear like Trump does in speeches and interviews.

ESTJ's are generally much much more reserved in 'talking out of their ass' and in doing so, when they do? It's from a *loss* of self-control not a tool to get what they want.

Anyway, I could see Hils as an ENTJ. I can buy that.

 

[Cowardly]

No INTJ politician on the left would come out in favor of same-sex marriage in 2013. That's a serious lack of foresight. I think Warren (or even Sanders) is much closer to INTJ than she is. I agree with the Enneagram typing.

And people don't dislike her because of her type. There are several actual reasons.

 

[Poki]

It's funny you don't see his playful side. I think he half jokes his way through his campaign. He is playing and having fun, too. It's simultaneous.

The main reason I don't see ESTJ in Trump (I have dated 2 in LTR and one of those was an ESTJ 3) is one big characteristic missing...is playing by ear like Trump does in speeches and interviews.

ESTJ's are generally much much more reserved in 'talking out of their ass' and in doing so, when they do? It's from a *loss* of self-control not a tool to get what they want.

Anyway, I could see Hils as an ENTJ. I can buy that.

I do see a playful side. But it is not wide enough to consider it ESTP. ESTJs in business do avoid talking out of their ass. But i dont think politics is anything like business. Politics hits a different emotional side that business uses just as a small goal in marketing, but not in management of it. He is completely out of his known. Es while they are still J love to shoot the shit and talk out of their ass much more then ESTP. He really lacks the diverse playful side that encompasses Se. I can cherry pick a bit of what he does and tie it to ESTP. But not enough to make me feel like i am not cherry picking. I feel like i have to cherry pick less to pin ESTJ.

I stick with my opinion of Hils...only thing that can really change my mind is to watch and listen to her more outside of her politcal speeches and anything that is more in the moment.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Saw this article on Hillary about speechwriting and messaging. Has Hillary finally found her voice? - POLITICO

It seems to shed light on her thinking process.

Her staff admired her attention to detail, but knew she was often her own worst enemy. Clinton is known for taking a draft of a speech and changing it some indelible way to make it more literal and less readable. (The joke at her Brooklyn campaign headquarters is that she would take the public safety slogan “If You See Something, Say Something,” and, in her literal-minded way, change it to say, “If You See Something, Alert the Proper Authorities.”)

This strikes me as very SiTe. Huge attention to detail, extremely literal understanding and expression.

But on the other, she still struggles, after all these years, when it comes to messaging — and remains almost hostile to the idea of a narrative.

No clear vision, no Ni conception of the message.

Interviews with more than half a dozen Clinton allies inside and outside her campaign reveal a candidate who remains deeply insecure when trying to commit to a message about her campaign, and reluctant to indulge in the rhetorical flourishes that make for the rousing poetry of campaigns.

No Fe, no Ni.

Clinton on the campaign trail often concedes she’s not a natural politician. But what that really means, top aides said, is that she is uncertain when it comes to messaging, and doesn’t connect naturally with any campaign slogans.

Weak, underdeveloped Fi, combined with no Fe. Uncertainty seems like weak Ne.

“She’s very methodical and driven by lists,” said a veteran staffer. “She has to check her list off, she has to talk about this policy, and that policy, thank these people. Once you get through the lists, the speech can be very boring. Few people can break through with Hillary in that.”

SJ

It’s the opposite of Bill Clinton’s process: The former president likes to write his own speeches from scratch before giving them to a few people for feedback.

Bill is a likely ENFJ. Hillary is nothing like him. Dual in socionics would be a ISTj.

ISTJ really seems to fit. She has no Ni or Fe and weak Fi and Ne.

 

[highlander]

Saw this article on Hillary about speechwriting and messaging. Has Hillary finally found her voice? - POLITICO

It seems to shed light on her thinking process.

This strikes me as very SiTe. Huge attention to detail, extremely literal understanding and expression.

No clear vision, no Ni conception of the message.

No Fe, no Ni.

Weak, underdeveloped Fi, combined with no Fe. Uncertainty seems like weak Ne.

SJ

Bill is a likely ENFJ. Hillary is nothing like him. Dual in socionics would be a ISTj.

ISTJ really seems to fit. She has no Ni or Fe and weak Fi and Ne.

I don't know what to say other than your analysis seems completely wrong. I don't think you understand Ni very well.

Bill could be an ENFJ. I don't think it's likely but it's definitely possible.