The Joker (the Dark Knight)

[VagrantFarce]

I feel that way every time I read one of Vagrant's posts.

ooooh

Meh. That's it. Last time I'm typing fictional characters surfing the interwebz.

 

[vince]

So when are we typing Pooh bear ?

 

[teslashock]

Come on guys. I don't even see where the argument is. Clearly the Joker is an ISFJ. Just read the damn comics. Geesh...

 

[Space_Oddity]

But what if Joker thinks he's doing all of this for the greater good? What if he thinks he's helping people come together in a time where people are too emotionally detached from each other? Sure he doesn't say this or hint at anything like this, but, I mean, come on guys! It's obvious he's an ENFJ!

Seriously guys, The Joker is an ENTP. When people talk about ENTPs and they want to illustrate the type, The Joker is at the top of that list. He embodies an archetype, he is an archetypal villian, he is an archetypal ENTP. ENTP ENTP ENTP ENTP

I'm afraid you missed the point.

Joker does behave like an ENTP. His plans do seem ENTP-ish. Chaos is indeed a very ENTP thing to create.

However, his grander scheme is very similar to every NTJ villain there is. He definitely DOES use Ni - he seems to know what's going on in characters' mind and skilfully manipulates it.

In other words, as I've already stated, he's both ENTJ and ENTP in a way. He's created to have a good grasp on Ni, because Batman is Si and he completely lacks the foresight of it. In all other ways he's created to be ENTP-ish because it corresponds better with his random 'madness' and because it creates chaos which Batman (representing the order) has to deal with.


P. S. I've been talking only about the Joker in The Dark Knight. The one in Batman from 1989 was certainly an ENTP.

 

[Jaguar]

So when are we typing Pooh bear ?

Vagrant is already typed.

 

[vince]

I think the Joker is a Jack Nicholson.

 

[Valuable_Money]

I'm afraid you missed the point.

Joker does behave like an ENTP. His plans do seem ENTP-ish. Chaos is indeed a very ENTP thing to create.

However, his grander scheme is very similar to every NTJ villain there is. He definitely DOES use Ni - he seems to know what's going on in characters' mind and skilfully manipulates it.

In other words, as I've already stated, he's both ENTJ and ENTP in a way. He's created to have a good grasp on Ni, because Batman is Si and he completely lacks the foresight of it. In all other ways he's created to be ENTP-ish because it corresponds better with his random 'madness' and because it creates chaos which Batman (representing the order) has to deal with.


P. S. I've been talking only about the Joker in The Dark Knight. The one in Batman from 1989 was certainly an ENTP.

Im only going to say this one more time.

His "grand scheme" of sending gotham into chaos isnt ni "vision", its inferior Si taken TO THE MAX.

 

[Space_Oddity]

His "grand scheme" of sending gotham into chaos isnt ni "vision", its inferior Si taken TO THE MAX.

Valuable_Money,

I was NOT talking about the GOAL.

I was talking about the way he manipulates people.

He constantly screws up with their minds. He always knows what they're going to do next. He's got a formidable foresight, just like every other NTJ villain or anti-hero. If his plans fail (which sometimes happens to every NTJ villain or anti-hero), he quickly (Ne, if you insist - perhaps just intelligence) creates another, which is again based on Ni.

Even if the only ENTJ thing about Joker was his Ni and the rest was all ENTP, it is there.

That's what makes him so interesting. And so different from Nicholson's Joker.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Valuable_Money,

I was NOT talking about the GOAL.

I was talking about the way he manipulates people.

He constantly screws up with their minds. He always knows what they're going to do next. He's got a formidable foresight, just like every other NTJ villain or anti-hero. If his plans fail (which sometimes happens to every NTJ villain or anti-hero), he quickly (Ne, if you insist - perhaps just intelligence) creates another, which is again based on Ni.

Even if the only ENTJ thing about Joker was his Ni and the rest was all ENTP, it is there.

That's what makes him so interesting. And so different from Nicholson's Joker.

Manipulating people can just as easily be Tertiary-Fe. In fact, I'm pretty sure ENTPs tend to be stereotyped as con-men.

 

[Valuable_Money]

Manipulating people can just as easily be Tertiary-Fe. In fact, I'm pretty sure ENTPs tend to be stereotyped as con-men.

Actualy I think ESTP gets that more but yes.

 

[Space_Oddity]

Manipulating people can just as easily be Tertiary-Fe. In fact, I'm pretty sure ENTPs tend to be stereotyped as con-men.

Ok, point taken; but I still wonder - ENFJs, INFJs, ESTPs - the types that are considered to be skilled at manipulating people - have all Fe coupled with Ni. You seem to think that's it's the Fe that has the manipulating function, but I think it's the Ni. In fact, I've never noticed that ENTPs would be stereotyped as con-men, and types with Fe-Si are not commonly known as skilled manipulators as far as I'm aware. Aspiring manipulators may they be - skilled? I don't think so.

Again, I was not implying that the Joker isn't an ENTP. I just think that he's ENTP plus something else. (He's a fictional character after all, not a real person. He could have been 'created' like that without the creators being even aware.) Yes, he has personal charm - Fe, point taken - but he's got the foresight, and that's a thing associated with Ni.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Manipulating people can just as easily be Tertiary-Fe. In fact, I'm pretty sure ENTPs tend to be stereotyped as con-men.

ENTP con men??? Without a partner around to keep re-attaching the blinders (the risk of distraction is everywhere), is an ENTP going to sustain focused interest long enough to con anyone? I could barely stay interested enough to finish this post.


I still think Joker is ENTP, but he's fictional and insane, so I don't expect him to fit a profile.

 

[Valuable_Money]

Ok, point taken; but I still wonder - ENFJs, INFJs, ESTPs - the types that are considered to be skilled at manipulating people - have all Fe coupled with Ni. You seem to think that's it's the Fe that has the manipulating function, but I think it's the Ni. In fact, I've never noticed that ENTPs would be stereotyped as con-men, and types with Fe-Si are not commonly known as skilled manipulators as far as I'm aware. Aspiring manipulators may they be - skilled? I don't think so.

Again, I was not implying that the Joker isn't an ENTP. I just think that he's ENTP plus something else. (He's a fictional character after all, not a real person. He could have been 'created' like that without the creators being even aware.) Yes, he has personal charm - Fe, point taken - but he's got the foresight, and that's a thing associated with Ni.

ESTPs have inferior Ni.

derp

 

[VagrantFarce]

I could barely stay interested enough to finish this post.

 

[Asterion]

What makes foresight a distinctly Ni thing? Ne also plans for the future, the only difference is that it adjusts to the outside world. The joker is, was and always will be the biggest ENTP out there... no matter how many functions some of you people seem to project onto him . Some of the stuff considered isn't all that related to MBTI too... I mean, what personality type is insane? You just ignore the insanity and take a look at the important stuff. The idealism that people detect is just normal ENTPness too...

 

[ZPowers]

My two cents...

My two cents. This is based as much on the comics as on the Nolan movies.

Batman- ISTJ
Joker-ENFP
Harvey Dent- ENFJ
Two-Face- ISTP
Scarecrow- INTP
Ra's Ahl Ghul- INTJ
Gordon- INFJ (?)

 

[Aleksei]

Heath Ledger's Joker is ENTJ. Previous Jokers have been ENTP.

 

[ZPowers]

Something I posted in another thread:

I still think there's a strong argument to be made that Joker's a feeler, not a thinker. He's manipulative, so emotionally manipulative he can even drive people mad with ease and sometimes still be totally charming to them (he can appear completely empathetic if he needs to). He takes a lot more pleasure in enjoying people's pain and tribulations than necessarily searching for a clear goal or. Between the "some men aren't looking for anything logical" (Joker's ten times more passionate than rational) speech and the "I use a knife because I savor all the little emotions . . . I knew your friends better than you did" bit, he always strikes me as having more fun playing in the realm of people's reactions and feelings and than he does with concrete and logical ideas and motives.

In fact, he doesn't care at all about money or power. He wants social change. He wants to make other people understand they are living in what he considers a lie. Watch the end of the Dark Knight, when he seems genuinely saddened the two boats didn't blow each other up, basically rejecting or criticizing him and all he stands for. He seems to take it sort of hard. And his relationship with Batman is, to him, very, very real. "You complete me" seems heartfelt. He seems upset in a similar way in "The Killing Joke" when asking Batman why he doesn't understand why it's funny, why he isn't laughing. On top of that, when Batman's off the scene, Joker takes it so hard he just stops being the Joker. See The Dark Knight Returns, when he loses his smile and goes next to comatose because Batman isn't out there to be his equal. Considering what others think and feel is extremely important to how Joker makes decisions.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I would say that the only real concrete evidence we have is his Extroversion, this would only dictate which functions he uses the most, but sense we can't seem to figure out the other 3 "x's" his insanity lends himself to a sort of bi-polarity (real word? no) allowing him to be almost anything (personality wise) that he wishes. Thus the conundrum of P/J and T/F.

If you disagreed with the Extroverted status I gave him then we'll go with 4 "x's" and blame it on his insanity. His personality is mood dependent, however if I were to say this phrase, and meant it, it would lend itself to what we perceive an F to be, but perhaps it's only mood dependent when he is extroverted. Making his type EF and when he is alone brooding he is IT. This I feel makes sense because without an audience to perform in front of (bringing in what 'experts' characterize as E(S)FP) he has time to analyze the hell out every plan, this would suggest that when he is alone he becomes an ITJ. The intuition? This shows itself when he acts out a plan, but not so much when he explains it. He seems to be prepared for everything, but his ingenuity is very theatrically explained, he brings in the senses (as when he burns the money) or shows the man tied up, the cards he uses to denote his next victims. All of these capture the senses as well as emotions.

After reading all this I think I led myself down a path which suggests that his personality (insanity) and the people around him affect his decisions more than anything, and when he is around noone he does what every other person does and think (he just doesn't pick usual topics). So I see him as being ESFP and INTJ ( in otherwords XXXX/everything). He can be portrayed however he wishes to be portrayed thats why he is fun to act and watch. I know this thread is dead, but I just felt like analyzing something.

 

[Valuable_Money]

I would say that the only real concrete evidence we have is his Extroversion, this would only dictate which functions he uses the most, but sense we can't seem to figure out the other 3 "x's" his insanity lends himself to a sort of bi-polarity (real word? no) allowing him to be almost anything (personality wise) that he wishes. Thus the conundrum of P/J and T/F.

If you disagreed with the Extroverted status I gave him then we'll go with 4 "x's" and blame it on his insanity. His personality is mood dependent, however if I were to say this phrase, and meant it, it would lend itself to what we perceive an F to be, but perhaps it's only mood dependent when he is extroverted. Making his type EF and when he is alone brooding he is IT. This I feel makes sense because without an audience to perform in front of (bringing in what 'experts' characterize as E(S)FP) he has time to analyze the hell out every plan, this would suggest that when he is alone he becomes an ITJ. The intuition? This shows itself when he acts out a plan, but not so much when he explains it. He seems to be prepared for everything, but his ingenuity is very theatrically explained, he brings in the senses (as when he burns the money) or shows the man tied up, the cards he uses to denote his next victims. All of these capture the senses as well as emotions.

After reading all this I think I led myself down a path which suggests that his personality (insanity) and the people around him affect his decisions more than anything, and when he is around noone he does what every other person does and think (he just doesn't pick usual topics). So I see him as being ESFP and INTJ ( in otherwords XXXX/everything). He can be portrayed however he wishes to be portrayed thats why he is fun to act and watch. I know this thread is dead, but I just felt like analyzing something.

...did you just say the joker is ESFP?

:wat: