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The Joker (the Dark Knight)

DiscoBiscuit

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Changing plans on the fly is what I do.

What happens when opposing counsel introduces unexpected pivotal evidence???

My smart ass has to come up with an argument on the fly b/c I know so much about the subject.
 

incubustribute

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Have you ever seen an ENTJ whose plan has failed, and who has to come up with a new approach on the spot? They're miserably bad at this. They characteristically melt down and flip their shit because there's no time to work out a new plan ahead of time.

read: Phil Helmuth.
 

Qre:us

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Changing plans on the fly is what I do.


Then you're a P not a J.

Have you ever seen an ENTJ whose plan has failed, and who has to come up with a new approach on the spot? They're miserably bad at this. They characteristically melt down and flip their shit because there's no time to work out a new plan ahead of time.

Yup, they're amazing at long-range planning, not improv. situational planning. The latter was what we saw in the Joker.

PS - an interesting quote from the Joker:

“Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Do you know what I am? I’m a dog chasing cars. I wouldn’t know what to do with one if caught it. I just do things. The mob has plans, cops have plans, Gordon’s got plans. They’re schemers, schemers trying to control their little worlds. I’m not a schemer I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are.”
 

DiscoBiscuit

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“Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Do you know what I am? I’m a dog chasing cars. I wouldn’t know what to do with one if caught it. I just do things. The mob has plans, cops have plans, Gordon’s got plans. They’re schemers, schemers trying to control their little worlds. I’m not a schemer I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are.”

If you think the Joker was being honest when he said this, that just shows how good of a trickster he really was...
 

Qre:us

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If you think the Joker was being honest when he said this, that just shows how good of a trickster he really was...

He really does believe it. He believes himself to be that good that he doesn't need a "plan" [unlike EVERYONE else...those losers] to orchestrate what he does (even though, in reality, it's all resultant through a plan)...it's called his psychotic delusions of grandeur.

PS - an archetypical ENTP against and archetypical ENTJ. There's never a question that the former is the trickster character.
 

Qre:us

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He planned the entire thing.

It was one plan.

Unfolding in layers.

Yes, as I already said....

(even though, in reality, it's all resultant through a plan)


Him believing that he has "no plan"...
...it's called his psychotic delusions of grandeur.

If he acknowledges to himself he had a plan, that would mean that he made the effort. He doesn't want to show that he made any real effort, he wants to see the efforts OTHERS made for him/to stop him. If they can.....

It's much less about him (not Fi), and much more about them [everyone else]. (how does Fe scramble to keep everyone together, safe, accounted for)
 

DiscoBiscuit

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I'm just saying, there's a chance he could be either, ENTP's don't have the market cornered on psychotic, hilarious, deadpan behavior.

EDIT: if he had an overarching plan, do you think he would let the audience know...
 

simulatedworld

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“Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Do you know what I am? I’m a dog chasing cars. I wouldn’t know what to do with one if caught it. I just do things. The mob has plans, cops have plans, Gordon’s got plans. They’re schemers, schemers trying to control their little worlds. I’m not a schemer I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are.”

This quote ALONE is enough to convince anyone out of thinking the Joker is a J. This about the least ENTJ quote I've ever heard.


Changing plans on the fly is what I do.

What happens when opposing counsel introduces unexpected pivotal evidence???

My smart ass has to come up with an argument on the fly b/c I know so much about the subject.

Yes, because you know so much about the subject! You're not improvising new plans on the fly; you're just switching to a different part of an even broader overall plan. You win by planning for every possibility that could come up and knowing what you're going to do if that happens. That's what ENTJs do.

A real P would convince the jury he knows just as much about the subject as you do, except without actually knowing a damn thing about it. He doesn't require the level of preparation that you do because he thinks on his feet so well.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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“Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Do you know what I am? I’m a dog chasing cars. I wouldn’t know what to do with one if caught it. I just do things. The mob has plans, cops have plans, Gordon’s got plans. They’re schemers, schemers trying to control their little worlds. I’m not a schemer I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are.”

This little monologue was used in furtherance of the Joker's plan to turn Harvey into 2 face.

EDIT: which was his plan B for when plan A (the boat bombs) went awry...

EDIT2: he knew he might need a plan, b/c he wasn't sure the people would kill each other, so he made one.
 

simulatedworld

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read: Phil Helmuth.

EXACTLY! If the new condition is something he was able to foresee and plan for, then he adjusts and uses a different part of the overall plan, and he's fine. Unfortunately you can't plan for some amateur spiking a lucky card on the river--ENTJ meltdown.


This little monologue was used in furtherance of the Joker's plan to turn Harvey into 2 face.

EDIT: which was his plan B for when plan A (the boat bombs) went awry...


What's your point? We've already conceded that ENTPs do some planning sometimes; it's just not their strong point and it's not the way they tend to succeed most often.

Are you implying that he was lying about this just because it helped his Harvey/2-face plan? That seems unlikely given how strongly the speech gels with his overall character and everything about his approach throughout the entire movie.

Besides that, though, he's just too focused on having fun and indulging whims. He doesn't have the ENTJ vibe at all. He so hates the idea of being controlled, and moreover, of truly controlling anything significant, that he gets off on showing people just how uncontrollable life really is. ENTJs are the antithesis of this; they get off on controlling every aspect of everything and they have veritable tantrums when the plan doesn't work out--think Michael Corleone. They're just so so so so much more exacting and purposeful than the Joker.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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An ENTP wouldn't have the drive, and continuing clarity of focus/vision, to execute the plan as perfectly as the Joker did.

EDIT: I left you an opening, lets see if you find it.
 

simulatedworld

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An ENTP wouldn't have the drive, and continuing clarity of focus/vision, to execute the plan as perfectly as the Joker did.

That's a dumb stereotype. Ps are capable of accomplishing long term goals, thanks. :hi:
 

DiscoBiscuit

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That's a dumb stereotype. Ps are capable of accomplishing long term goals, thanks. :hi:

Wrong answer.

What was the right answer Alex?

"He (as an ENTP) could have that drive and clarity of vision if he had some traumatizing experiences in his previous and formative years.

But what's he won?

He wins a :D
 

simulatedworld

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Wrong answer.

What was the right answer Alex?

"He (as an ENTP) could have that drive and clarity of vision if he had some traumatizing experiences in his previous and formative years.

But what's he won?

He wins a :D

I've won more than your poor typology read could win in a thousand games of Jeopardy, Alex.

He doesn't need to be traumatized in his formative years in order to make successful plans. If you think this is true of Ps in general then you need to read some basic material on this topic, for fuck's sake.
 

simulatedworld

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More like, "Never expect an ENTJ to concede anything."
 

DiscoBiscuit

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But I conceded that your argument was the winning one.

That he was an ENTp.

:coffee:
 
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