Ayn Rand fandom and type

[GZA]

I've read Anthem, enjoyed it, and tried reading The Fountainhead but I couldn't stand it.

I'd say she was a batshit-crazy INTJ, and her crazy Randian fanboys are probably batshit-crazy INTJ's, as well. Thats the experience I've had with her fans, including the guy who first introduced her to me (I realize that one guy should not speak for all). Anthem was pretty cool, but the Fountainhead was bullshit and I couldn't even finish it. It seemed like the kind of book that that arrogant, dilusional asshole in your gym class with an intellectual superiority complex would write. And that pretty much describes the kid who introduced me to her, too. I don't even know what happened to that guy -he vanished off the face of the earth one day, moved to a different school or something and I havn't heard about him again. But he always had some grandiose vision of his great intellectual ability, and he seemed to hate everyone, or at leats have a general contempt for mankind. Thats what I didn't like about her philosophical ideas, too -they seemed to be rooted in insecurity rather than actual strength.

 

[Harlow_Jem]

OMG I fucking love Ayn Rand. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are my absolute favorite novels. I don't care if she was a crackpot nutjob. She wrote and conveyed her ideas in a way that no one else has done. Straightforward, to the point, and hits you as hard as a bullet.

I quite like the fact that she was so black and white. It made her convictions unwavering, whether or not I personally agreed with all of them or not; sometimes I feel like living life in black and white and rejecting tolerance of gray is the way one should live life.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I quite like the fact that she was so black and white. It made her convictions unwavering, whether or not I personally agreed with all of them or not; sometimes I feel like living life in black and white and rejecting tolerance of gray is the way one should live life.

Despite my previous post in which I described I had nothing but contempt for her, this is one compliment I will pay her. I don't believe in gray.

 

[Edgar]

Despite my previous post in which I described I had nothing but contempt for her, this is one compliment I will pay her. I don't believe in gray.

How can you not believe in gray? So it's either saint or a sinner, patriot or a terrorist, black or white?

 

[MacGuffin]

Despite my previous post in which I described I had nothing but contempt for her, this is one compliment I will pay her. I don't believe in gray.

I've wondered if the black/white people can determined by type. It seems they are more often Js. Perhaps this helps in driving to a conclusion? Then again, I've also wondered how an abstract, big picture (iNtuitive) person couldn't help but see the grey.

I personally don't see much use in binary (black/white) thinking. There's always a third alternative!

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

How can you not believe in gray? So it's either saint or a sinner, patriot or a terrorist, black or white?

On balance...well, yes. You can have properties of both, but in the end I think you can be judged to be one or the other. Here's something I wrote on my blog a couple years ago that sums it up.

I was having a discussion the other day with a very smart friend of mine about whether the world was made up of black and white or shades of gray. She was on the side of gray, which is funny, because she's an engineer. And I, the man of letters, was on the side of black and white. But I won her over by appealing to the engineer in her. Here's my argument...I'm interested in what you all have to offer on the topic.

Let's take a typical decision that you might make..."Should I go out to dinner tonight?" Now, you might run through a million arguments in your mind on each side. But in the end, you are either going to go, or you are not going to go. We may think in shades of gray, but we can only act in black and white. Yes or no. Zeroes or ones. I hate to quote Yoda, since I hate the little bugger, but "Do or do not...there is no try." Now, some of these yes or no decisions are infinitesimally small. "The blue shirt or the red shirt?"..."Soup or salad?"..."Jeopardy! or The Simpsons?" But big decisions are made up of these little decisions. Zeroes and ones.

Now, without examining our actions closely, it may seem like we do gray things. Let's take an example. Say you were to ask a woman for a date. But what if you were talking to her, lost the courage, and instead asked her to join a group of friends for an outing? It might be said that you acted gray because you chickened out and did it halfway. But you made conscious yes or no decisions through the entire process. To wit:

She's hot. Should I talk to her? YES
Wow, I'm scared. Should I still ask her out? NO
Should I instead ask her on a group date? YES

See? Life is like a flow chart.

Now, many of these black and white decisions are small, and make up a larger decision. So from a distance life appears gray. But, just like newsprint, if you examine the gray closely, you find that it's made up of millions of little black and white dots.

Zeroes and ones.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I personally don't see much use in binary (black/white) thinking. There's always a third alternative!

Yes, there always is. Many times, there are four, five, six alternatives. The point is that it can be determined. To me, gray is just throwing up your hands.

 

[MacGuffin]

Yes, there always is. Many times, there are four, five, six alternatives. The point is that it can be determined. To me, gray is just throwing up your hands.

We are defining differently then!

 

[Edgar]

Say you were to ask a woman for a date. But what if you were talking to her, lost the courage, and instead asked her to join a group of friends for an outing? It might be said that you acted gay because you chickened out and did it halfway.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Blackwater]

I actually don't think Ayn Rand was that much of a nut job. I do think, however, that she suffered from a spectacular case of Animus Projection though:

The unindividuated woman identifies with those personal qualities that are symbolically feminine; she develops these potentialities and to some extent integrates their unconcious influences into her conscious personality. However, she does not recognize qualities that are symbolically masculine as part of her own personality but rather projects them onto men. She will project her animus—those particular characteristics and potentialities that are significant components of her personal unconscious and therefore carry a special emotional charge—onto a few men for whom she will then feel a strong and compelling emotion (usually positive but occasionally negative). Infatuation (an instant, powerful attraction for a man about whom she knows little) is one of the signs of animus projection, as is a compulsive possessiveness.

Though why can't more people see her as a voice, not a truth. An inspiring, original voice and one that can produce an empowering, almost conversion-like experiences in political gentiles.

(Ok, I know why - I'm just being rhetorical here.)

But seriously: Looking at AR's philosophy as a truth rather than a perspective is missing the point. - Square her in with other INTJ philosophers such as Hobbes or Nietzsche and you get the point. - You wouldn't want to carry Hobbes' or Nietzsche's philosophy to serious extent in the real world, especially not in a liberal democracy, but you *would* want them to take you on a ride through their wraithlike Ni-landscapes.

---

So Hobbes, Nietzsche and Rand walk into a bar. - Who can finish that sentance?

---

Oh and MacGuffin: Nice to see you posting a little about yourself and not just edgey one-liners. I often wondered what the character behind all those clever tricks was like

 

[Edgar]

Jesus and Nietzsche walk into a bar.

Jesus says to Nietzsche "I totally understand how you are feeling", then pulls out a gun and shoots his brains out.

 

[pippi]

On balance...well, yes. You can have properties of both, but in the end I think you can be judged to be one or the other. Here's something I wrote on my blog a couple years ago that sums it up.

I was having a discussion the other day with a very smart friend of mine about whether the world was made up of black and white or shades of gray. She was on the side of gray, which is funny, because she's an engineer. And I, the man of letters, was on the side of black and white. But I won her over by appealing to the engineer in her. Here's my argument...I'm interested in what you all have to offer on the topic.

Let's take a typical decision that you might make..."Should I go out to dinner tonight?" Now, you might run through a million arguments in your mind on each side. But in the end, you are either going to go, or you are not going to go. We may think in shades of gray, but we can only act in black and white. Yes or no. Zeroes or ones. I hate to quote Yoda, since I hate the little bugger, but "Do or do not...there is no try." Now, some of these yes or no decisions are infinitesimally small. "The blue shirt or the red shirt?"..."Soup or salad?"..."Jeopardy! or The Simpsons?" But big decisions are made up of these little decisions. Zeroes and ones.

Now, without examining our actions closely, it may seem like we do gray things. Let's take an example. Say you were to ask a woman for a date. But what if you were talking to her, lost the courage, and instead asked her to join a group of friends for an outing? It might be said that you acted gray because you chickened out and did it halfway. But you made conscious yes or no decisions through the entire process. To wit:

She's hot. Should I talk to her? YES
Wow, I'm scared. Should I still ask her out? NO
Should I instead ask her on a group date? YES

See? Life is like a flow chart.

Now, many of these black and white decisions are small, and make up a larger decision. So from a distance life appears gray. But, just like newsprint, if you examine the gray closely, you find that it's made up of millions of little black and white dots.

Zeroes and ones.

Your argument wouldn't have won me over, I don't live my life in black and white despite having an engineering degree and being INTJ. Your flow chart needs more options than two. I see everything as a spectrum and a choice.

One of the things I've discovered about people who are black and white is that they only see 2 choices and I see many more possibilities. Even if the other choices are not obvious or require additional steps or combining things they are there. It is easier to make decisions when there are only 2 choices so black and white people ignore all the other possibilities. I may eventually narrow down my decision to the same two choices, but I evaluated a lot of others along the way.

Oh and I don't like Ayn Rand.

 

[Harlow_Jem]

On balance...well, yes. You can have properties of both, but in the end I think you can be judged to be one or the other. Here's something I wrote on my blog a couple years ago that sums it up.

I was having a discussion the other day with a very smart friend of mine about whether the world was made up of black and white or shades of gray. She was on the side of gray, which is funny, because she's an engineer. And I, the man of letters, was on the side of black and white. But I won her over by appealing to the engineer in her. Here's my argument...I'm interested in what you all have to offer on the topic.

Let's take a typical decision that you might make..."Should I go out to dinner tonight?" Now, you might run through a million arguments in your mind on each side. But in the end, you are either going to go, or you are not going to go. We may think in shades of gray, but we can only act in black and white. Yes or no. Zeroes or ones. I hate to quote Yoda, since I hate the little bugger, but "Do or do not...there is no try." Now, some of these yes or no decisions are infinitesimally small. "The blue shirt or the red shirt?"..."Soup or salad?"..."Jeopardy! or The Simpsons?" But big decisions are made up of these little decisions. Zeroes and ones.

Now, without examining our actions closely, it may seem like we do gray things. Let's take an example. Say you were to ask a woman for a date. But what if you were talking to her, lost the courage, and instead asked her to join a group of friends for an outing? It might be said that you acted gray because you chickened out and did it halfway. But you made conscious yes or no decisions through the entire process. To wit:

She's hot. Should I talk to her? YES
Wow, I'm scared. Should I still ask her out? NO
Should I instead ask her on a group date? YES

See? Life is like a flow chart.

Now, many of these black and white decisions are small, and make up a larger decision. So from a distance life appears gray. But, just like newsprint, if you examine the gray closely, you find that it's made up of millions of little black and white dots.

Zeroes and ones.

Exactly. There are always an infinite number of possibilities to theorize about the simplest decision, but all the petty things in life always fall into the gray. To fully and completely reign in one's universe, it's best to leave the gray to the peasants and only deal with the black or white.

 

[LucrativeSid]

Are you guys talking about black and white thinking or black and white decision making?
The former may be limiting, and the latter is just common sense.

Without decisions, it will be really hard to advance in anything.

 

[Edgar]

Are you guys talking about black and white thinking or black and white decision making?
The former may be limiting, and the latter is just common sense.

Without decisions, it will be really hard to advance in anything.

A P talking about black and white decision makings?

Why I never!

 

[Venom]

She wrote and conveyed her ideas in a way that no one else has done. Straightforward, to the point, and hits you as hard as a bullet.

since when is a 60 page "final speech" considered straight forward?

 

[Uytuun]

Yes, there always is. Many times, there are four, five, six alternatives. The point is that it can be determined. To me, gray is just throwing up your hands.

I'm all about grey.

And electric blue, but that's another thing altogether.

Are you guys talking about black and white thinking or black and white decision making?

Good question.

 

[Blackwater]

Ok, so Hobbes, Nietzsche, and Ayn Rand walk into a bar.

Nietzsche: (to Rand) Want a taste of my 'skyscraper', baby?

Hobbes: Hah! I bet its solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

Nietzsche: Actually, it's beyond good and evil.

Rand: A building has integrity just like a man. And just as seldom.



[...]



Mycroft: Only INJs can be this intense!

Err... I'll just log off now

 

[Mycroft]

Mycroft: Only INJs can be this intense!

...whu?

 

[MacGuffin]

Your argument wouldn't have won me over, I don't live my life in black and white despite having an engineering degree and being INTJ. Your flow chart needs more options than two. I see everything as a spectrum and a choice.

Other than the "INTJ" part I'm exactly the same way (degree included).

since when is a 60 page "final speech" considered straight forward?

BlueWing!

Oh and MacGuffin: Nice to see you posting a little about yourself and not just edgey one-liners. I often wondered what the character behind all those clever tricks was like

Take it from me, that guy's a jerk!