Hitler Analysis

[Orangey]

Whah?

This...

This discussion has gotten really nasty. I can't believe the suggestion was made that Hitler is the same type as a specific member of this forum who happens to be Jewish. Not the first time I've been disgusted here, but certainly the most surprised and disgusted at the same time.

I believe Jae Rae (in the bolded part) was talking about the part of your post that I quoted.

 

[Little Linguist]

Oh, what the heck.

Seems this thread is pretty much taken over by now, anyway, I made my point. Though it's getting obvious how different people understand the MBTI, the difference between the functions T/F, as well as their attitudes, and it's a bit sad I think.

But everyone's seems to have their own opinion and be happy with it, so - whatever ^^

Look I did not mean it the wrong way, but if you take a look at the argument, I think a good case could be made that both Himmler and Hitler were INFJ.

I mean, I could find quotes, but they would be mostly in German and I do not feel like translating and writing a dissertation at 12 am. On the other hand, if it really interests you, I could pull a BlueWing and do a long-winded analysis with quotes and all. No probs.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

This...



I believe Jae Rae (in the bolded part) was talking about the part of your post that I quoted.

Well, if you're right...
My response is that there will be Jews of every type. I can't call Hitler any type that isn't the same type as a Jew somewhere. It's coincidence, and one that doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Look I did not mean it the wrong way, but if you take a look at the argument, I think a good case could be made that both Himmler and Hitler were INFJ.

Again, I say INFJ's Fe does not work for Hitler.

 

[Little Linguist]

Well, if you're right...
My response is that there will be Jews of every type. I can't call Hitler any type that isn't the same type as a Jew somewhere. It's coincidence, and one that doesn't really mean anything.

I mean, really!!!!!! Geez!!!! I mean even *I* am rational enough to figure that out. And dude, I'm a total irrational fart. No offense. I mean it is not like you are a bad person or anything, but that is really an irrational statement.
Don't get mad at me for saying that though, hon. Don't mean it mean.

 

[Little Linguist]

Again, I say INFJ's Fe does not work for Hitler.

Well, okay....why?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I already explained, didn't I? His concern and consideration for other peoples' values were put under a steamroller by his own, often very eccentric personal values.

 

[Little Linguist]

Leading Introverted iNtuiting Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects
Supporting Extraverted Feeling Connecting and considering others and the group
Relief Introverted Thinking Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles
Aspirational Extraverted Sensing Experiencing and acting in the immediate context.

If he did not have Fe, he would have been an egotistical jackass. He wasn't. You can argue that he was a crazy nut. But not an egotistical jackass.

He didn't say HITLER über alles. He said DEUTSCHLAND über alles. And he meant it too. When asked why he did not have a wife, he said he was in love with his people. That's totally Fe. Okay, Fi was also highly, highly developed.

BUT take a look at my results, for example. My results for Fi were something like 44,5 and for Fe were 43 or something. You can have a strong preference for both, so it is really really hard to say.

As a quick edit, I think up until 1942-1943 he had a strong Fe. After '43 I think he demonstrated more of a do-or-die Fi attitude, but I wonder if that was not stress-related?!

 

[Jae Rae]

Well, if you're right...
My response is that there will be Jews of every type. I can't call Hitler any type that isn't the same type as a Jew somewhere. It's coincidence, and one that doesn't really mean anything.

No it is not a coincidence.

There is a difference between saying someone diabolically evil is a certain type and saying he's the same type as a person on this forum whom you call out by name and use as an example of whatever you're trying to prove. Get it?

In the example given above of INFJ, it would be like saying "Look at [known Jewish INFJ member of MBTIc] and what he said here. See how alike their thinking is?" Sorry that's just plain offensive.

 

[Little Linguist]

OH oops, didn't catch that...I just thought you meant:

X is a Jew. X has Y type. You said Hitler had Y type, so that is offensive.
It's getting late. I gotta go to bed.

 

[Orangey]

No it is not a coincidence.

There is a difference between saying someone diabolically evil is a certain type and saying he's the same type as a person on this forum whom you call out by name and use as an example of whatever you're trying to prove. Get it?

In the example given above of INFJ, it would be like saying "Look at [known Jewish INFJ member of MBTIc] and what he said here. See how alike their thinking is?" Sorry that's just plain offensive.

What would their being Jewish have to do with it?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

But in the end, he has nothing to do with the will of the people. The people, which is more importantly represented by the abstract concepts of the nation, and a certain race, is used as his icon for abstract higher values. In other words, they're just the tokens for what are his Feelings alone.
He doesn't actually consider the Feeling values of the rest. The rest, he thinks, are best being molded by his values. He may care about them in some perversed way, but he thinks of himself as the only one with the guiding values.

Hitler was egotistical in a lot of ways. He believed himself destined to be a savior(after being gassed, interestingly), and his behavior showed the patterns of Narcissistic PD. Now, Narcissism does result in temporary bouts of extreme self-deprecation, but they always bounce back into a state of self-importance again(unless they commit suicide in their depression, which Hitler eventually did).

 

[Little Linguist]

What would their being Jewish have to do with it?

Still not quite sure, unless she thought the person was insinuating that one group has a certain type, and the person was talking negatively about that type in reference to the group, but I still have a on my face....

 

[Magic Poriferan]

No it is not a coincidence.

There is a difference between saying someone diabolically evil is a certain type and saying he's the same type as a person on this forum whom you call out by name and use as an example of whatever you're trying to prove. Get it?

Captain Chick has Jewish blood?

 

[Little Linguist]

But in the end, he has nothing to do with the will of the people. The people, which is more importantly represented by the abstract concepts of the nation, and a certain race, is used as his icon for abstract higher values. In other words, they're just the tokens for what are his Feelings alone.
He doesn't actually consider the Feeling values of the rest. The rest, he thinks, are best being molded by his values. He may care about them in some perversed way, but he thinks of himself as the only one with the guiding values.

Hitler was egotistical in a lot of ways. He believed himself destined to be a savior(after being gassed, interestingly), and his behavior showed the patterns of Narcissistic PD. Now, Narcissism does result in temporary bouts of extreme self-deprecation, but they always bounce back into a state of self-importance again(unless they commit suicide in their depression, which Hitler eventually did).

Uh, not to contradict, buuuuuut, he had the highest percentage of votes in the country, which is no different than the CDU getting elected with 33% of the vote or Bush getting in on 34% or whatever it was. The elections were fair and democratic, although you could argue that the system was totally instable.

As an aside, it was the people who called him the savior mostly. I have to look up whether or not he repeatedly referred to himself as that. I think it was more effect than cause, though, if he did.

As proof, look at all the placards.

And if you had a situation with THIRTY-THREE percent unemployment rate, and he got it down to a normal amount (I think it was five or six, but don't quote me til I check) - people would consider you a savior, too. And anyway, how is that any different from Obama saying he wants a world without nuclear weapons and all this rhetoric - he sounds like he has a savior complex, too, except that he hasn't done anything but talk.

Now don't get your heads in a tither - I am not comparing Obama with Hitler. I'm just saying there is a certain amount of rhetoric involved in any political discourse - EXCEPT he actually did what he said.

Alas, he also did other things that were totally crap. But until 39, people actually liked the guy. Contrary to common knowledge, American businessmen actually invested in him; Chamberlain actually, "I can totally understand how this Herr Hitler feels....It's amazing that we are trying on gas masks here for a quarrel in a faraway country between two peoples...." Interesting.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Uh, not to contradict, buuuuuut, he had the highest percentage of votes in the country, which is no different than the CDU getting elected with 33% of the vote or Bush getting in on 34% or whatever it was. The elections were fair and democratic, although you could argue that the system was totally instable.

As an aside, it was the people who called him the savior mostly. I have to look up whether or not he repeatedly referred to himself as that. I think it was more effect than cause, though, if he did.

As proof, look at all the placards.

And if you had a situation with THIRTY-THREE percent unemployment rate, and he got it down to a normal amount (I think it was five or six, but don't quote me til I check) - people would consider you a savior, too.

First of all, this country has elected ISTJs and INTJs, so winning an election is not really a reflection of Fe. Even a massive personality cult campaign is not a sign of Fe. The person at the top could decide it would be best to be loved, because it strategically makes sense, and then contact masters of the craft of propaganda to do the job. Hitler did do that. Everything from having a man like Goebbels to hiring a great documentary maker.

Hitler's actually interection with people was strange. He was something of a party show off(when actually bothered with such events) and people seem to report that even one on one, Hitler mostly talked in lecture form. People like Goebbels were rather perversely taken in by it, while Mussolini, Stalin, and Chamberlin all found him to be horrible to talk to. You couldn't realy talk to him. He just meanders about what's appealing to him. Not even a fake attempt to care about what you're thinking. Even Braun referenced this, as was mentioned.

I was mainly thinking of something he wrote in in Mein Kampf, when he states that he realized it was his destiny to save Germany.

 

[Jae Rae]

Captain Chick has Jewish blood?

I didn't know you were unaware of that.

It's probably better if I stay out of the Hitler threads.

 

[Little Linguist]

First of all, this country has elected ISTJs and INTJs, so winning an election is not really a reflection of Fe. Even a massive personality cult campaign is not a sign of Fe. The person at the top could decide it would be best to be loved, because it strategically makes sense, and then contact masters of the craft of propaganda to do the job. Hitler did do that. Everything from having a man like Goebbels to hiring a great documentary maker.

Hitler's actually interection with people was strange. He was something of a party show off(when actually bothered with such events) and people seem to report that even one on one, Hitler mostly talked in lecture form. People like Goebbels were rather perversely taken in by it, while Mussolini, Stalin, and Chamberlin all found him to be horrible to talk to. You couldn't realy talk to him. He just meanders about what's appealing to him. Not even a fake attempt to care about what you're thinking. Even Braun referenced this, as was mentioned.

I was mainly thinking of something he wrote in in Mein Kampf, when he states that he realized it was his destiny to save Germany.

Hmm, perhaps it is able to be debated. I think there are good arguments for both sides. But I can hardly see why he would go through all that trouble and sacrifice so much (with regard to having a family, for example) if he did not do it out of love for the people. Now whether or not this is healthy is a complete other question. And I agree that it is hard to make a precise assessment since there is so little information about what he said privately. But please...consider not only his speeches but also his time when alone, because people put on "hats" in public. And if what Junge and Speer and others say in their books are accurate - and I have no reason to think they were not - I think you have to accept that he had an extremely developed Fe, if not a secondary feature.

But let me give it some thought. Because now I've really gotta go to bed...it's past 1 am and I have to get up tomorrow morning and do lessons, go to the gym, etc. Fair enough?

(BTW, it is really interesting to have this debate with you, thank you. )

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I didn't know you were unaware of that.

Well, I wasn't aware of that. It still wouldn't have stopped me. She happened to be an ENFP, that demonstrated a mind-set that is typical of high Fi, which was also evident in Hitler, so it was a worthwhile example since I was indicating that Hitler was an ENFP.

I don't feel bad about what I said, because it was true, it was not driven by personal or bigoted intent, and it's hardly like I was trying to say that Captain Chick is the next Adolf Hitler.

Come on. Lot's of peoples' little flaws are at the core, the same as what grows into the massive flaws of history's villains. There were bad INTPs, too. Good grief.

 

[The Ü™]

Nazi dominatrices!