Burn Notice

[kendoiwan]

So. Very. Wrong.

 

[Aleksei]

not necissarily Ni there

Ni is foresight. You know Ni is foresight, you fucking wrote about it (amazing job by the way ). What else is foresight?

 

[miss fortune]

I'm just saying that just because a type lists the functions in a specific order doesn't mean that those are going to necissarily be a person's orders of strength... he shows even more Se than he does Ni, with his technical grasp on things, ability to manipulate the situation around him on almost NO notice and control over his physical being

 

[Aleksei]

The other functions don't fit, in any case. Michael is clearly Te rather than Ti -- rather than scanning his environment and making deductions from it, his mode of operation is to foresee a sequence of events (Ni), and then plan accordingly and mobilize the necessary and available human and material resources to get that plan done (Te). His Se may be strong (I actually did detect strong Se in him, yes), it could even be stronger than his Ni and Te (bizarre but possible -- my own Te is stronger than my auxiliary Fi), but it's subordinate to his management and planning skills, and thus a lower function. That is why he's the mastermind of every operation, whereas Fiona (who is ISTP and badass of her own accord) is not. His feeling function is also Fi rather than Fe. He's certainly heroic, but his heroism is rather selective -- he appears not to give a shit about innocent bystanders.

EDIT: More on his Se... even being inferior, it would most certainly come out very strong, given his age and his line of work. It's gotten plenty of exercise.

 

[Ratsimoan]

Fiona- some Feeler type, I'm not sure if she's an enfp. By the way Feeler is can be tough and bad. A lot of Fiona decision are determined by her feelings. Not saying that istps female aren't girly but Fiona is very girly. Look at her apartment and the way she dress.
Michael- intj
Sam- esfp

 

[Aleksei]

Fiona is a tough as nails, impulsive, live-in-the-moment type (so Se it hurts) and not very sociable. I could easily see her being ISFP instead of ISTP, but she's definitely some sort of ISxP.

Sam -- I could definitely buy Sam being ESTP (certainly some sort of ExTP), but I think N. He seems to have some degree of foresight, though of course not nearly as much as Ni-on-crack Michael.

 

[Ratsimoan]

Fiona is a tough as nails, impulsive, live-in-the-moment type (so Se it hurts) and not very sociable. I could easily see her being ISFP instead of ISTP, but she's definitely some sort of ISxP.

Sam -- I could definitely buy Sam being ESTP (certainly some sort of ExTP), but I think N. He seems to have some degree of foresight, though of course not nearly as much as Ni-on-crack Michael.

I can see Sam as an entp. That was my second choice. I'm glad you see Fiona as a F not T.

 

[MacGuffin]

If he's not INTJ, I'm Santa Claus.

I want a new camera for Xmas.

Michael is an ISTP stereotype.

 

[Aleksei]

No he isn't. I just laid out in detail why he isn't. Offer a counterargument, or gtfo.

 

[MacGuffin]

No he isn't. I just laid out in detail why he isn't. Offer a counterargument, or gtfo.

Easy:

Portrait of an ISTP - Introverted Sensing Thinking Perceiving
(Introverted Thinking with Extraverted Sensing)

The Mechanic



As an ISTP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things rationally and logically. Your secondary mode is external, where you take things in via your five senses in a literal, concrete fashion.

ISTPs have a compelling drive to understand the way things work. They're good at logical analysis, and like to use it on practical concerns. They typically have strong powers of reasoning, although they're not interested in theories or concepts unless they can see a practical application. They like to take things apart and see the way they work.

ISTPs have an adventuresome spirit. They are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing, etc. They thrive on action, and are usually fearless. ISTPs are fiercely independent, needing to have the space to make their own decisions about their next step. They do not believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit their ability to "do their own thing". Their sense of adventure and desire for constant action makes ISTPs prone to becoming bored rather quickly.

ISTPs are loyal to their causes and beliefs, and are firm believers that people should be treated with equity and fairness. Although they do not respect the rules of the "System", they follow their own rules and guidelines for behavior faithfully. They will not take part in something which violates their personal laws. ISTPs are extremely loyal and faithful to their "brothers".

ISTPs like and need to spend time alone, because this is when they can sort things out in their minds most clearly. They absorb large quantities of impersonal facts from the external world, and sort through those facts, making judgments, when they are alone. ISTPs are action-oriented people. They like to be up and about, doing things. They are not people to sit behind a desk all day and do long-range planning. Adaptable and spontaneous, they respond to what is immediately before them. They usually have strong technical skills, and can be effective technical leaders. They focus on details and practical things. They have an excellent sense of expediency and grasp of the details which enables them to make quick, effective decisions.

Practically a character sheet for Michael.

Stereotypical ISTP.

 

[Aleksei]

None of which addresses the fact that Michael has a tremendous amount of foresight (higher Ni), excellent management and organization skills (Te), and seems unconcerned with intricacies, deduction and little nuggets of reasoning (no Ti). Any type can easily behave like another type (I act nothing like a typical ENFP, but I'm Ne Fi Te Si), and just citing type descriptions is a lazy and pedestrian way to argue type theory.

The last paragraph doesn't describe Michael at all, in any case. Out of him, Fiona and Sam, he's the one who always takes a step back and plans what comes next. He's a man of action yes, but he never goes in unprepared. Fiona (ISTP) on the other hand, always wants to immediately dive into the fray.

 

[MacGuffin]

None of which addresses the fact that Michael has a tremendous amount of foresight (higher Ni), excellent management and organization skills (Te), and seems unconcerned with intricacies, deduction and little nuggets of reasoning (no Ti). Any type can easily behave like another type (I act nothing like a typical ENFP, but I'm Ne Fi Te Si), and just citing type descriptions is a lazy and pedestrian way to argue type theory.

The last paragraph doesn't describe Michael at all, in any case. Out of him, Fiona and Sam, he's the one who always takes a step back and plans what comes next. He's a man of action yes, but he never goes in unprepared. Fiona (ISTP) on the other hand, always wants to immediately dive into the fray.

What foresight? He's not a long-range strategic planner at all, he's a tactical thinker who observes the field of battle and makes a plan that he often has to change in the heat of the moment.

Pure ISTP.

Here's the last paragraph again:

ISTPs like and need to spend time alone, because this is when they can sort things out in their minds most clearly. They absorb large quantities of impersonal facts from the external world, and sort through those facts, making judgments, when they are alone. ISTPs are action-oriented people. They like to be up and about, doing things. They are not people to sit behind a desk all day and do long-range planning. Adaptable and spontaneous, they respond to what is immediately before them. They usually have strong technical skills, and can be effective technical leaders. They focus on details and practical things. They have an excellent sense of expediency and grasp of the details which enables them to make quick, effective decisions.

He likes to be alone, going over intel and making plans from the conclusions he draws. And what plans are those? They usually are of him going out and doing something himself, often after being yelled at by Sam and Fiona to not do it all himself. He doesn't sit back and manage others, he does things himself.

Things often go wrong and he's consistently able to improvise something (like your biker example - you call that Ni? lol) and get out of the jam.

He focuses on details and practical things like building bombs out of smoke alarms.

 

[miss fortune]

you're making a mistake comparing Michael to Fiona there... Fiona isn't an ISTP... ISTPs tend to think before acting (like all introverts )

plus, isn't it more likely that Michael's tertiary is well developed, he is older... and Ti combined with Fe can work quite well with managing and organizing things as well...

 

[Benny]

Every argument I've read against Michael being ISTP describes ISTP's perfectly. This is hilarious. Mike's ISTP. Someone please argue against me about the nature of ISTP's. haha

Other than that I'd say Sam is ESTP.
I don't now about Fiona... possibly ISFP

I don't care about the other characters.

 

[redacted]

(I've been watching this show tons recently so had to rekindle this thread.)

Wow I'm ridiculously ashamed that I ever thought Michael was anything but ISTP.

For all those making N arguments, when have you heard him say anything abstract? Seriously, I can't think of one thing. How could he be an N then?

Foresight does not make you an N. A PREFERENCE for abstract thinking makes you an N. He clearly has a preference for concrete thinking -- it's not even close to close to arguable.

 

[Aleksei]

(I've been watching this show tons recently so had to rekindle this thread.)

Wow I'm ridiculously ashamed that I ever thought Michael was anything but ISTP.

For all those making N arguments, when have you heard him say anything abstract? Seriously, I can't think of one thing. How could he be an N then?

Foresight does not make you an N. A PREFERENCE for abstract thinking makes you an N. He clearly has a preference for concrete thinking -- it's not even close to close to arguable.

You fail for using letter analysis. Foresight is the very definition of Ni, which Michael uses very often.

Ni users in fact can sound distinctly concrete (ENTJs and ENFJs especially), because they're focused on a fixed image of the future which seems concrete to them, and their preference is to organize the outside world on basis of that image. They're strategists, not theorists. NPs are more spacey and "what-if"-y. It's one of the reasons I believe a lot of supposed SJs are actually NJ.

I'm thinking ISTP for him might be right, though, which doesn't conflict with what I just said. ISTPs use Ni aplenty.

 

[redacted]

You fail for using letter analysis. Foresight is the very definition of Ni, which Michael uses very often.

I'm thinking ISTP for him might be right, though, which doesn't conflict with what I just said. ISTPs use Ni aplenty.

No it isn't the definition.

I agree that foresight is an instance of an N function. Foresight is not S.

But there's a huge difference between ability and preference. So Michael uses N. Duh. So does every single person. So Michael is smart. Sure. He's proficient with Intuition.

He just obviously doesn't prefer it to Sensing.


I could make the exact opposite argument with the same reasoning. Michael is SOOOOO good at thinking through details. He MUST be S!!!! OMG you're stupid for thinking he's N!

This is where typology fails. When people use it to describe ability and forget that it's a descriptive system purely about PREFERENCE.


P.S. I'm not only thinking letter by letter. I'm thinking functional analysis as well. Ti/Se seems descriptively consistent with his behavior. Seems like a better descriptor to me than Ni/Te.

You're just oversimplifying...you think that if you can use an N function proficiently you must be N. And yet you don't think if you can use S proficiently you must be S. Why? You think Ns just have more mental capacity overall, so they can just cover both bases? How closed-minded.

 

[Aleksei]

This is where typology fails. When people use it to describe ability and forget that it's a descriptive system purely about PREFERENCE.

A preference for foresight is a preference for Ni. It is indeed abstract, but as I demonstrated in my last post (as edited) it may not seem so. Captain Aubrey (Master and Commander, ENTJ) doesn't seem abstract at all, for example, but he clearly has a preference for prediction (Ni) over reliance on experience (Si). The last scene of the movie is proof -- his pep talk to his men consisted of quite accurately predicting what the Acheron would do when it saw them.

I can make the distinction.

I'm not only thinking letter by letter. I'm thinking functional analysis as well. Ti/Se seems descriptively consistent with his behavior. Seems like a better descriptor to me than Ni/Te.

I think in terms of all four functions, not just the first two. Michael is clearly farsighted and clearly has a good eye for detail and a knack for improvisation -- which means he is an Ni/Se type. The big question is whether he prefers Te or Ti. If Ti, then he's ISTP. If Te, then he's INTJ.

As for which ine he prefers more, to me he seemed to prefer them more or less equally, which I deduced to mean that the lower function was Se rather than Ni -- given that his line of work appears far more likely to force the development of Se than it is to force the development of Ni.

 

[SecondBest]

You fail for using letter analysis. Foresight is the very definition of Ni, which Michael uses very often.

I'm thinking ISTP for him might be right, though, which doesn't conflict with what I just said. ISTPs use Ni aplenty.

I think a lot of the disagreements here are based on letter analysis vs. cognitive function analysis. I'm going to try and drop the letter analysis altogether until the end, but I'll try to explain what I believe to be his first four most used cognitive functions. The ones I will delineate, I also do believe, are very very close together. These unusual traits in cognitive function is what makes Michael Westen such a unique and intriguing character for me. And I'll focus on Michael as he's the only guy I really care about in this TV show. Though I'd agree with those who said Sam Axe is ESTP.

1. Ne function - From Cognitive Processes.com: "This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand."

I think everyone can agree this fits Michael pretty well.

2. Ni function - From Cognitive Processes.com: "The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future."

I don't think there's any argument here either.

3. Se function - I think this is the heart of what's being debated here. There is no doubt in my mind that he is exceptional at seeing the details. Any good soldier absolutely MUST have a strong Se function. So he takes all the details he encounters and uses his Ni function in conjunction with his Ti function to get behind those details and see the truth of a situation.

4. Ti function - Sometimes people think, generally, if you don't care about the feelings of others, you are a Te. It makes sense, but in my opinion, the extraverted function is the way we process what's outside of us, and the intraverted function is how we deal with what we have processed outside of ourselves through our extraverted function. In that sense, it's very clear to me that he handles what he sees on the outside with a strong rational perspective.

Also, another note: To me, the fact that he does want to help people to no real benefit of his own suggests at the very least that the Te function is NOT a part of his primary cognitive functions.

So he's got Ne/Se in extraverted functions and Ni/Ti in introverted functions. Couldn't tell you what type that would be, but I'm pretty sure it's in line with what everyone in this thread has been throwing out.

 

[Aleksei]

I don't see much Ne coming out of Michael at all. Do you ever see him brainstorming seemingly random possibilities? He's an Se and Ni type -- and I think everyone here agrees on that. The real argument is on whether he's a Ti versus Te type.

The idea that a good soldier must have Se is incorrect, though. Si abilities (concretely, focusing on details in front of you to check whether they match previous experience) are just as good -- if not better. The vast majority of soldiers are Si types, and many sportsmen are as well.