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Why Frozen's Elsa is INFJ

HBIC

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Mar 5, 2014
Messages
174
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Elsa makes the choice to leave in the face of social disapproval. Nobody forces her to do it. A te user would have pointed out that the disapproval of her subjects didn't really matter on account of her being queen and them not, and proceeded to rule well enough that they'd forget about it. A ti user would have argued that the ice powers would not hinder her ability to rule, and might actually help, if she used them to defend the kingdom. A fi user might have left, but would never have become ashamed of the powers before hand (self acceptance even if they're different is kind of their thing, you know?). So we see that, in her internalizing other people's negative emotional judgments, and making choices that show an inability to cope with social disapproval, Elsa displays fe. As for the idea that she's fi because she "expresses what she thinks of her powers and how she feels about having to suppress them": fe users have feelings too, and are more want to express them than fi users. A fi user would have expressed them much earlier, but Elsa waits for external emotional stimulus I.E. the reveal and the disapproval that followed. She feels her emotions in tandem with others, not by herself (contrast that with Anna, who gets her big "this is how I feel" songs in the first few minutes of the movie, with no-one else providing emotional stimulus. It's all in her head.)

At the begginning of the movie at what, age 13? No, it wasn't her choice. The mantra "Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know." was given by her parents as clearly shown while they hand her the gloves. She conformed to it, yes, and played her role really well for many years, but it took a visible toll on her.

You see that as being Fe, I see that as Enneagram related. I don't think everything about a person, wether real or fictional, can be tied to personality type. This is related to her world view to me, which belongs to the Enneagram sytem, and not MBTI.

To me what keeps me from ever being able to see Elsa as INFJ is what I've already stated before: no demonstration of using Ni. People talk a lot about her showing Fe and Se, but the only evidence for Ni I they bring up is her construction of the ice palace. But that doesn't determinate Ni at all.


I'd agree with this.

Additionally - with most things - people would tend to see characteristics in which they would understand most and embody themselves. Many Fi-users may see Elsa's critical moment as something she was solely doing for herself - whereas I (and Fe-users) may see it as Elsa trying to make the best of a difficult situation, with the primary goal of making sure that others were safe. Elsa to Anna in the ice castle (Fe): "I'm just trying to protect you." Elsa sang, "The past is in the past!" as she threw her crown (Se)... even though Ni would continue to synthesize past events.

Except you're quite wrong in your assumption about Ni users. I'm an INTJ and "I'm never going back/The past is in the past!" is one of my favorite lines in the song, which are the ones I most identify with. Ni users are all about the future, we have no use or interest in the past. We resolve things and move on, differently from Si users. They would dwelve in the past forever.

To be honest several of so-called "INFJ traits" people see in her are to me, due to her Enneagram. But people aren't so keen on discussing that, which is weird due to the Ennegram going much deeper than MBTI ever could.
 

LittleV

Just a note...
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Messages
271
MBTI Type
INFJ
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4w3
Except you're quite wrong in your assumption about Ni users. I'm an INTJ and "I'm never going back/The past is in the past!" is one of my favorite lines in the song, which are the ones I most identify with. Ni users are all about the future, we have no use or interest in the past. We resolve things and move on, differently from Si users. They would dwelve in the past forever.

To be honest several of so-called "INFJ traits" people see in her are to me, due to her Enneagram. But people aren't so keen on discussing that, which is weird due to the Ennegram going much deeper than MBTI ever could.

You cannot synthesize without looking at past events. It isn't black and white/all or nothing. Ni looks to predict the future using accumulated information, past and present, to infer... with hypothetical focus on the future. It's a framework that constantly shifts and changes... like moving wheels continually seeing what fits in order to improve circumstances.

How do you, as an INTJ, function without looking at progress? Cognitive science would disagree with the limitations you've presented. Also, you didn't seem to understand that I'd picked that line because it showed the dynamic between Ni and Se... the Ni bit was a caveat showing that the past isn't forgotten. I also like it, apparently.

As younger kids may frequent these topics on the internet, please be responsible when posting... try to understand what people are saying/what you're saying and come with legitimate information.

Again, this is a character... without much screen time as it is.
 

HBIC

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Mar 5, 2014
Messages
174
MBTI Type
ESTP
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8w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
You cannot synthesize without looking at past events. It isn't black and white/all or nothing. Ni looks to predict the future using accumulated information, past and present, to infer... with hypothetical focus on the future. It's a framework that constantly shifts and changes... like moving wheels continually seeing what fits in order to improve circumstances.

How do you, as an INTJ, function without looking at progress? Cognitive science would disagree with the limitations you've presented. Also, you didn't seem to understand that I'd picked that line because it showed the dynamic between Ni and Se... the Ni bit was a caveat showing that the past isn't forgotten. I also like it, apparently.

As younger kids may frequent these topics on the internet, please be responsible when posting... try to understand what people are saying/what you're saying and come with legitimate information.

Again, this is a character... without much screen time as it is.


No matter how smooth you thought you were being in your phrasing, the "shade" is still transparent. I understand very well what people are saying and obviously what I wrote myself as I'm no imbecile. I perfectly understand why you've picked that line, I however disagree with your interpretation of it. I "function" as a human being using cognitive processes, which are subconcious, I don't go around thinking "Oh, this though is brought by Ni, that decision was made b my Fi", neither do I believe that every thought/feeling/action is down to type. As for "Cognitive science disagreeing" with my views, I fail to see how that closes a discussion. I guess it does if you're the type who readily believes and accepts information given to you, even when it's about a system that it's light years from becoming a science as is personality typing.

As for asking me to be responible this is an open internet forum, not an university class. I'm not a professor or an authority in personality types, every user of this forum is in perfect liberty of posting their thoughts as unorhtodox or incorrect as they might be. And as for "legitimate information", I don't see how any of the claims I made in my past posts are not. I don't have to go on about notions that any person with an average knowledge of MBTI would have, it is assumed that they wouldn't be discussing a subject they haven't a grasp on.

But as you've said, it's a screen character and people are free to interpret her as whatever they see fit.
 

LittleV

Just a note...
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
271
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w3
I can say what I feel is responsible and emotionally fitting (for the most part - not everything is black and white), and at the end of the day, you will do as you choose. This won't be personal for me, and I won't put another thought to this afterward. I'd rather agree to disagree (with some things). Take care.
 

HBIC

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Messages
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ESTP
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Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I can say what I feel is responsible and emotionally fitting (for the most part - not everything is black and white), and at the end of the day, you will do as you choose. This won't be personal for me, and I won't put another thought to this afterward. I'd rather agree to disagree (with some things). Take care.

Same. It isn't wise to dedicate too much of your time and energy in such an irrelevant matter. Take care you too :flowerz:
 
S

Society

Guest
first of all, i want to congratulate disney for their first movie to be able to pass the bechdel test. it took you awhile, but you made it.

aplauso.gif


now for her type:

I don't think Elsa is an ISFJ because I don't think most ISFJs would build an ice castle after running away. They would probably weep or break down. (think Cinderella, who is ISFJ). But the thing about INFJs is that when something bad happens, we don't just feel sad; we get angry, frustrated, and slightly rebellious, which is what happened to Elsa and caused her to build the castle. Which brings me to another reason- Elsa built an ICE CASTLE for goodness' sake! She used her creativity and strong spirit to create that gorgeous ice castle! Definitely a sign of intuition.

she also grew up in a castle. you can't can't see an Si dom recreating their childhood home's main design principles? and how original exactly do you need to be to want to recreate your childhood home in the first place? the fact she was able to do that from ice rather then having to contract construction workers has more to do with the magical aspect of who she is then how she processes information or her personality - given the control she had over it from her childhood, it's also quite obvious that she didn't need to develop any extensive insight into how her magic works - it just did. she had control over ice, it was right there, literally an extension of her hands, making it the most obvious choice. you need to be an intuitve to use what's right in front of you? i doubt it.

When Elsa tried to hide her powers from everyone, she worried and stressed A LOT, which is something us INFJs do quite often!
it's something both IxFJ's do often.

She always thought about the future, and was fearful and cautious.

she was fearful and cautious of how people would react and of hurting anyone. while technically you can say that those are events that would happen in the future, to mark that as future-thinking takes quite a bit of a stretch - if you took the most extremes of ISFJ stereotypes you'd still have someone who want to have 2.4 kids and a house with a white fence In the future.

She expects a lot from herself, and tries to seem perfect in public.
again a very common FJ trait in general (for all 4 xxFJ's)

She feels different, and has to learn to accept herself and find her place in society.
...she feels different because she can create ice form her finger tips, not because of perceiving the world in a drastically different way to most people around her.

and:
She also tries to suppress these differences, which is what a lot of INFJs do.
...is not in itself a demonstration of Ni, but the natural IxFJ reaction to feeling different.

and ofcourse:
But usually you can tell INFJs apart from ISFJs because INFJs are more independent, mysterious, deep, wise, mature, creative, and aren't as passive as ISFJs.
no, to all of that. that is a pure 100% ego, 0% analysis, and the main reason people type themselves as Ns for all the wrong reasons. it's ironic how often the claims for N's depth, wisdom, maturity and creativity stem from the most transparent, shallow, false, immature and banal of beliefs. not a single one of those is an N or Ni trait.


....that's being said. i agree - there is one point that is applicable to making her more likely to be an INFJ then ISFJ:

Elsa is always very future-oriented, especially when she sings Let It Go and decides that her future and place will be to stay in the ice castle. She tells herself to forget the past. To me, this is very Ni and very un-Si.
the ease at which she transitions from one perspective to another, completely abandoning all she valued in one second to support the next. building on perspective A to move to perspective B with barely any awareness that it was founded on a perspective which contradicts her current one a moment ago.

so yes, she is probably a bit closer to INFJ then to ISFJ, not because the ways in which her perspective is deep or complex, but because the ways in which it's narrow sighted. in order to not see herself hurt anyone, she choose to make sure to not look back - literally to prevent herself from seen whether she hurts anyone (probably a few thousands of her own people dying out of starvation and hypothermia, her sister almost dying out of direct conflict, and the fact she appointed a royal ice delivery boy after, meaning they still send ice miners to mountain climb and work in dangerous environments to get the very substance she can fart out of her finger tips for no cost of human lives at all).
 

Elaine

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1w9
IMO Elsa seems to be more Fi/ Te. There is a line in Let it go where she states there are no rules for her:

"It's time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me,
I'm free!
"

I don' t think that' s a line a Fe - dom would casually say. Besides, I believe it isn' t society' s expectations that she was afraid not to live up to, as much as not fullfilling the expectations of her family and her duty as a queen( There is a short scene when she prepares to the coronation when she looks at her father' s portrai Judging from her expression, I would say that she was more worried about not putting a shame on her family or her father' s memory) . Also, from what she says she mostly thinks about the future( like worrying about Anna and forcefully sending her away when her sister found her) . I would say an INFP with nurtured Te who puts on a cold exterior.
 

HongDou

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I don' t think that' s a line a Fe - dom would casually say.

Haha well first of all INFJs aren't Fe-dom.

Besides, I believe it isn' t society' s expectations that she was afraid not to live up to, as much as not fullfilling the expectations of her family and her duty as a queen( There is a short scene when she prepares to the coronation when she looks at her father' s portrai Judging from her expression, I would say that she was more worried about not putting a shame on her family or her father' s memory) .

Doesn't really disprove Fe imo. If anything Fe is usually more concerned with the people close to them than society's expectations of them. On the flip side, emphasized concern on how her decisions will affect her environment seems at least Je (in this case Fe>Te, being that she's more concerned with keeping harmony and positive spirits among her kingdom rather than organization and efficiency).

Also, from what she says she mostly thinks about the future( like worrying about Anna and forcefully sending her away when her sister found her) . I would say an INFP with nurtured Te who puts on a cold exterior.

Ne is actually more emergent than future-oriented. Between Ne and Ni, I'd say Ni is more mindful of future implications while Ne is more concerned with possibilities in the moment.
 

Kellyhere

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Whoever posted this... You obviously know NOTHING about MBTI. Everything you claim here as INFJ characteristics is stereotypical, untrue to cognitive functions (and those are what you should give attention to when typing someone and NOT the four letters) and also kinda insulting to some other types. For example, how dare you say that ISFJs have no imagination? What criteria did you base that assumption on? MBTI has nothing to do with imagination, i's about the way we process and use information. And every person is creative in their own way. E.g let's take Suzanne Collins, one of the best writers of today... Guess her type? ISFJ!

Now to the point: Elsa is anything but INFJ. She uses the exact different functions. She is the most ISTJ that's ever been. She struggles to escape the past (Si), she finds comfort in past experiences like the snowman (Si) and she sees everything from t he past lens (Si again). She relies heavily on facts and not emotions to make decisions, she is very organized and methodical (Te) and kinda blunt (Te). Yes, she may appear to rely on emotions but that's because she is in a Si-Fi loop. And if you don't know what loops are, search them!

Another sign is she is veryyy afraid of the future which hints at inferior Ne. Inferior functions is something you should maybe learn about because you don't seem to have any idea what they are or how they work. I recommend FunkyMbtiFiction for you to start, it's the best blog on Mbti. So, Elsa also shows strong Fi and no Fe (Fe is high up in INFJs). She cares about being true to herself and isn't really swayed by what others seem to think. And how dare you call non-feelers uncaring!! Not being Fe doesn't make you uncaring for others. Fi is caring too. They just show it through actions more than words.

In short, you'd better get digging. And quit believing that not being an INFJ doesn't make you complex. If only 2% of people were complex (what a word, do you know what type of people tend to use it for themselves often?) then the world would be much more shallow and empty. (i highly doubt you are an INFJ. Did I hurt your feelings? Sorry not sorry).

Better luck in typing next time.
 

wolfnara

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sx/sp
The reason these people mistyped her as ISTJ is because she isn't really a warm and fuzzy type of person so they thought she might be a thinking type, but when others typed her as ISFJ, they saw through her cold (pun intended) exterior and realized that she really cared a lot for other people and was truly very selfless! But everyone who mistyped her as a sensor thought that she might be a sensor because she is dutiful and responsible. But this is why they're wrong:

Well first of all Fe and Fi are nothing to with how selfless the person is.

Thinking about the future doesn't suddenly make someone an NJ.
I've even seen this listed on descriptions that worrying about the future is one of the downsides of inferior Ne. If Elsa wasn't thinking about the consequences of her uncontrollable ice powers, honestly she would be pretty stupid. Also not wanting to hurt people, including her own sister, doesn't make her Fe.

Elsa is an extremely strong and complex character, and I don't think an ISFJ or any other type would be that strong and complex of a character. She is a very unique princess!
:bored:
Being an INFJ doesn't make you better and more complex than everyone else, or any other characteristic that you associate with the type. Typology isn't about personality traits such as those.
 

Yama

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I don't really care what Elsa's MBTI type is but this quote from the op^ that wolfnara responded to is the stupidest thing I've ever heard lmao. This just in guys, if you're an ISFJ then you're stereotypical and boring and there's nothing exciting about you, and you're too simple and don't have the ability to be complex or unique!
 

gromit

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This just in guys, if you're an ISFJ then you're stereotypical and boring and there's nothing exciting about you, and you're too simple and don't have the ability to be complex or unique!

Yeah ISFJ, why do you even exist?????


 

Super Janice

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When Elsa tried to hide her powers from everyone, she worried and stressed A LOT, which is something us INFJs do quite often! She always thought about the future, and was fearful and cautious. She expects a lot from herself, and tries to seem perfect in public.

ISTJ is also fearful and cautious because they have inferior Ne!
 
Last edited:

Super Janice

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"To test the limits and break through",worrying about Anna and forcefully sending her away when her sister found her shows inferior Ne!
 

Forever

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"To test the limits and break through",worrying about Anna and forcefully sending her away when her sister found her shows inferior Ne!

More like inferior Se. Lol.
 

EmotionLessGirl333

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How about I go against the grain and use somthing outside the film to type. No, I don't think a book is more reliable than an original film and I know liberties are taken with media translation, but this is a new way of looking at Frozen and holds a place worthy of recognition. One reason I find it hard to believe Elsa is INFJ is the expanded material that consistently says otherwise.

EXHIBIT A

A Sister More like Me: This short childrens book is very popular and praised among fans. I for one certainly recomend it; the artwork is well done and i enjoy the poem on sisterhood. This book almost undeniably supports ISTJ for Elsa. If we went only on this book's evidence, anyway.

I is, like the film, supported. Examples: When Anna says " You needed peace and quiet", "You never said a word", ( not the best evidence, but I must present as much as possible.) In general, when Elsa is "alone" she seems happy, content. But she does long for her little sister.

S is supported when Elsa says "I considered it my job to do what needed to be done." "You were always and forever finding ways to have more fun." (You'd think an N would at least not be "driven crazy" by new ideas for fun. Surely not all the time.) "It was important as a princess, that I look my best." Sounds like she has her personal reasons for following certain traditions which is more S-like.) Anna is seen following Elsa around, using many methods to get her attention, but Elsa isnt interested, not even mildly . Anna tells Elsa later," You always did your duty." S is more interested in the importance of duty than Ns usually are. Ns can still be like this, but it isnt as likley as S dominance is, for the S is primary.

Evidence of T: While Anna saying Elsa is wonderfully smart is not enough in itself to say T, Anna saying "You always used your head" could be, since Fs do not lean towards Thinking above Feeling in most cases. Elsa is seen "Cooped up in ths Study," doing geometry. And she enjoys it, though she IS upset by not being with Anna as before. Elsa admits of herself, with a smile, "I was prickly as an urchin." It seems a T( with perhaps Fi) is more consistent with that statement than Domiant F, especially Fe.

J: Elsa has her room "neat and tidy" and overall is very thoughtful of plans, not likely to do things on a whim.

All in all, Elsa is very ISTJ in this book, considering the overall shortness of this poem. Yes, an INFJ CAN be these things but ISTJ is more consistent because it is their DOMINANT personality and not secondary. Important to note is that Elsa exhibits these traits even when she is Relaxed, and not at the moment terrified of herself. The character is also admiting it of herself, accepting it, and is still like this even AFTER she is mature and has control over her powers. The poem was made in many ways to contrast the sisters so you may say they simply made them this way for the story, though I still feel this wonderfully made book holds some ground on Elsa and Anna in a large way. Again, Frozen fans should check out this book, even if you disagree with the ISTJ theory.
 
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