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The Mistyping of James Tiberius Kirk

Siúil a Rúin

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I'll agree that he's ExTP.
I'm not willing to commit to more.

(I think Kirk's type is also confused because Shatner comes across as more ESTP. If you get an ESTP trying to play an ENTP, then you ... see an ESTP trying to be weirdly N.)

it'll be interesting to see what others say.
I agree here.
I think the reason people think ESTP is because there is an earthy quality to Kirk that not all ENTPs have. He doesn't bring disparate concepts together elegantly into a logical, theoretical framework. He doesn't take you on that conceptual roller coaster of new ideas like many Ne-doms can do. He is brilliant at improvisatory action, but that is what STPs do. His relationship to women seems more Se-dom than inferior Si, being so present in the moment, skilled at the nuances of interaction, and heightened conscious awareness of the moment. He doesn't have any conceptual interaction with women whatsoever. I see ENTPs as innocently offending women and then charming one unexpectedly because their mind is going a mile a minute and they aren't hampered by any social norms, but they are also oblivious to the concrete, earthy aspects of human interaction.

I don't know a single theory that Kirk has ever devised. What does he think about the nature of reality? I don't know, but I do know how he acts upon reality. I know what he'll do, but I have no idea what he'll think. Has he ever expressed ideas that were not immediately connected to the concrete reality of the moment? I don't recall ever hearing one.

ESTPs have Ti-aux, so that may account for his conceptual logical reasoning for relating to situations. The abstractions used to solve problems always seem tied to logic with Kirk. That is different from Ne, not being based on logic.
 

Mal12345

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"You. You can't even break rules, how would you be expected to break bone?" - Khan, to Spock (Khan = INTJ)

Spock is seemingly always ISTJ

Kirk on the other hand .. reckless, impulsive, yet clever. On the fence but I have a hard time seeing him ENTJ. Some elaboration is required.

Shatner's Kirk was not reckless and impulsive.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Shatner's Kirk was not reckless and impulsive.

That's what I was saying earlier. It's because people have been measuring him against Picard for 30 years. I also think Jar Jar Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman showed a complete lack of understanding of the character when they rebooted the franchise--it seems their Kirk is based largely on the popular misconception of the shoot first cowboy that most lightcore trekkies have--and they all admitted to not having been huge Star trek fans; it's like they turned Kirk into Han Solo. In their defense, that Kirk was younger and had grown up with a different set of circumstances influencing his path and outlook.
 

Mal12345

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That's what I was saying earlier. It's because people have been measuring him against Picard for 30 years. I also think Jar Jar Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman showed a complete lack of understanding of the character when they rebooted the franchise--it seems their Kirk is based largely on the popular misconception of the shoot first cowboy that most lightcore trekkies have--and they all admitted to not having been huge Star trek fans; it's like they turned Kirk into Han Solo. In their defense, that Kirk was younger and had grown up with a different set of circumstances influencing his path and outlook.

I'm not 100% certain of some of what you're saying. But Shatner's Kirk was a strategic thinker with Intuition - ENTJ. It's the combination of traits that let him beat Spock at 3d chess.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I'm not 100% certain of some of what you're saying. But Shatner's Kirk was a strategic thinker with Intuition - ENTJ. It's the combination of traits that let him beat Spock at 3d chess.

I may have overstated my case. But I think we're more in agreement than we are disagreement, at least in regard to agreeing he's not reckless and impulsive. I think people are mistaking his gift for improvisation for impulsiveness. He almost always thinks before acting. I see Archer and Pine's Kirk as more impulsive and prone to taking risks. The same qualities that make him a great Captain make him a terrible Admiral. I'd recommend The Lost Years--it covers some of the period between TOS and the Motion Picture, explaining how he was willing to give up his job for an Admiral's office.

I would agree ENTJ seems more likely than ENTP. Not entirely sold though.
 

Carpe Vinum

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"You. You can't even break rules, how would you be expected to break bone?" - Khan, to Spock (Khan = INTJ)

Spock is seemingly always ISTJ

EDIT: After giving it some thought, I can see ISTJ as the stronger argument for Spock. I had him typed as INTJ because he does demonstrate moments of independent thought and deep insight. For example, abandoning the traditions of Vulcan in favor of Starfleet in the new film series. However, his overall demeanor is, as you said, the quintessential by-the-book, ISTJ, "just the facts, ma'am."

Khan I perceive as ENTJ, the despot to Kirk's good king, if you will.

Kirk on the other hand .. reckless, impulsive, yet clever. On the fence but I have a hard time seeing him ENTJ. Some elaboration is required.

He's actually not that reckless in TOS, but I would attribute his impulsive moments to tertiary Se. Heading out to dinner now. If I have time later, I'll post something about why I think he's Te-Ni.
 
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Mal12345

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I agree here.
I think the reason people think ESTP is because there is an earthy quality to Kirk that not all ENTPs have. He doesn't bring disparate concepts together elegantly into a logical, theoretical framework. He doesn't take you on that conceptual roller coaster of new ideas like many Ne-doms can do. He is brilliant at improvisatory action, but that is what STPs do. His relationship to women seems more Se-dom than inferior Si, being so present in the moment, skilled at the nuances of interaction, and heightened conscious awareness of the moment.

If you're talking about Kirk's romantic relationships, those were always manipulative ploys - strategic maneuvers. Or in the case of Elaan of Troyius, Kirk's feelings were manipulated by a biochemical attack on his central nervous system; but in the long run, Kirk's will was stronger.
 

Mal12345

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In the episode "Space Seed," ENTJ Khan Noonien Singh senses (Intuits) crew member McGivers' feelings and then proceeds to manipulate them for the purpose of creating a female "Judas." Both Kirk and Khan use their intuition in an endeavor to use others as pawns (Te).
 

Mal12345

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The Gamesters of Triskelion

Kirk kisses and then strikes a female slave in order to make a jail break. In the end he forces a bargain on the Gamesters, wagering his ship's crew against the Gamesters practicing the principle of freedom by releasing their slaves.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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If you're talking about Kirk's romantic relationships, those were always manipulative ploys - strategic maneuvers. Or in the case of Elaan of Troyius, Kirk's feelings were manipulated by a biochemical attack on his central nervous system; but in the long run, Kirk's will was stronger.
I didn't see his escapades as all that strategic - but more sensual satisfactions of the moment.
I guess from my perspective, this is the quintessential ENTP, much less earthy, but quick-witted in verbal interplay of ideas….


tom%2Bbaker%2B1.jpg
 

Mal12345

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I didn't see his escapades as all that strategic - but more sensual satisfactions of the moment.
I guess from my perspective, this is the quintessential ENTP, much less earthy, but quick-witted in verbal interplay of ideas….


tom%2Bbaker%2B1.jpg

I have to ask - how much original Star Trek have you watched?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I have to ask - how much original Star Trek have you watched?
The entire series several times since I was a child. I've seen every episode of every spin off of the Star Trek world along with all of the movies. Most of it more than once.
 

Mal12345

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The entire series several times since I was a child. I've seen every episode of every spin off of the Star Trek world along with all of the movies. Most of it more than once.

Then I have no explanation for you posting a picture of a wild-eyed foreigner in this context.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Then I have no explanation for you posting a picture of a wild-eyed foreigner in this context.
It's the real, original Dr. Who who is a perfect example of an ENTP as a contrast to Kirk.

Anyway, I think you have a consistent way that you type people, but I've noticed that in almost every case we have a different concept of what is type is all about. Anyway, I'm not super invested in Kirk's type, so I was just participating fwiw.
 

Mal12345

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It's the real, original Dr. Who who is a perfect example of an ENTP as a contrast to Kirk.

Anyway, I think you have a consistent way that you type people, but I've noticed that in almost every case we have a different concept of what is type is all about. Anyway, I'm not super invested in Kirk's type, so I was just participating fwiw.

As I said before, I'm not 100% certain of what you're saying. And there are so many Dr. Who's that I barely recognize one from another. Was that the Dr. Who with the long scarf?
 

Carpe Vinum

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I can see ESTP for Kirk. Se has to be somewhere on his functional stack.
 

Waterbug

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Have to keep this thread alive. And since I really don't know hardly anything about MBTI I feel it's my job. I think Kirk is ENTP because I am. Pretty simple really. Only TOS Kirk I think has been considered. Abramsverse Kirk is a very different type I'd assume. More of a TOOL type.

Overall I think we should consider Kirk being a trained officer. That means he's a mature ENTP. Drill instructors aren't huge fans of hearing Ne. You learn to exercise more Ti. And care of appearance is also something instilled. I think this can confuse typing.

I don't see Se very often. Kirk takes in data to be sure but I don't see where he's seeing, hearing, etc... things in an elevated way. Spock handles that. For the most part Kirk is always taking in data. On the other hand Ne is very clear. Kirk has to control how much is made visible as any mature ENTP does.

Kirk may appear a thrill-seeker but he's the Captain which greatly reduces that ability. The unknown red shirt dude is the actual thrill-seeker who is point man and gets creamed.

Kirk talks people into believing some pretty crazy ideas and gets them to execute the idea. The climax of many shows. He rarely actually orders anyone.

I've never seen Kirk wanting to be the center of attention. He often is, because, well, ENTPs can't help it. But it doesn't seek it. Seem like he's always trying to get out of parties, awards, etc...

He's not easy to type, because I think what the writer's had in mind is not exactly what Shatner is portraying. (And maybe the director is somewhere in between.) If you look at Kirk on paper he's an ENTP. Cheating to beat the Kobayashi Maru is exactly how an ENTP operates.

I think that has to be close to the answer. I would say mainly, or only, the writer controls the type. Shatner's job, and the director's, is to implement what the writer wrote. I think personality traits are about what you do more than the veneer you portray while doing it. Would anyone use The Enemy Within to type Kirk? Seems illogical.

There's been a few references to episodes and I'll toss in a few more to back the case for ENTP.

CharlieX
8:30 - Spock & Bones theorizing while Kirk listens waiting to formulate an opinion. Bones tries to get Kirk to be a father figure to Charlie and sends it back to Bones doesn't sound like a feeler.
14:20 - Charlie asks Kirk about slapping a women on the butt. Kirk is tongue tied. Not very ENTP.
30:40 - Spock, Bones, Kirk discussing Charlie. Kirk plays devil's advocate and at the end arrives at his conclusion.
41:50 - BANG - there's Kirk's Ne on full when he makes connections to create the theory that Charlie's power is limited.
43:00 - Kirk trusts is Ne, almost no Ti even, and confronts Charlie full on. Man of action sure, but only as a last resort.

The Naked Time
0:00 Kirk doesn't even go to the surface to investigate. Doesn't sound Se.
6:50 Kirk Ne brainstorming what happened on the planet. Kirk listens, formulates and pushes team for more info. At end Kirk's BS filter is on "I'll hold you to that half second Scotty."
32:42 Kirk Ne with Bones on what happen to crew member. Wants more info.
38:20 Engines off, ship crashing, Scotty says he can change the laws of physics...but Kirk can. "If we can balance our into a controlled implosion..." Kirk's Ne and he trusts it enough to risk the ship. Scotty implements because he's seen Kirk pull this crap out of thin air many times and be right.
41:00 Kirk sure didn't see Spock's hay maker coming. Where's that Se when you need it.
41:10 Kirk's speech to Spock is convincing with no actual facts. "We've got to risk implosion, it's our only chance. Don't tell me that [it can't be done] again Science Officer. It's a theory, it's possible. We may go up in the biggest ball of fire since the last sun in these parts exploded but we've got to take that one and 10,000 chance." Why yes, theories are indeed possible. Monkeys flying out my butt is possible. Typical ENTP. One in 10,000 chance...ENTPs are so capable of "knowing" the odds of things that have never been done even if they have to round off to easy to understand numbers. It works and now he has both Scotty and Spock on board. You magnificent ENTP bastard.
44:50 Kirk is talking to himself on what course to take. You can see that Ne and Ti pinging back and forth. Has to talk through to the answer.
49:20 Spock tells Kirk now that the implosion thing works they can go back in time. Kirk says, "well, maybe someday." Not very thrill-seeker. But then I would have said "cool, let's go."

Want to do any more episodes?
 

Doctor Cringelord

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He's an ESTP who uses his tertiary Fe a lot.
 
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