Prophet Muhammad

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

“ I don't know what anthropology is. But being interested in how religion changed humanity, you have a thin line between those who hate relegion and those who saw it as good.”

There you go again, making assumptions about which you know nothing. We’re done here.

( seriously though, if I had a dime for every person who cannot even pronounce “ Anthropolgy” let alone know what it is, well, I’d be rich enough to have never bothered getting an education.)

I stated clearly that I don't know it, and so I didn't make assumptions. I only said what I previously know about history, I didn't say it was good or bad.(hating religion or seeing it as good)

If I want to make assumptions I could have googled Anthropology and pretent to be against it. You seriously shouldn't keep taking everything personal. Because it isn't.

I'm trying to show respect to you in this debate, but you think everything I say is attaking you. I apologise for the second time if my words souded like disrespecting you.

 

[1487610420]

hi xann

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

Muslims are killing us on the streets of Australia, and on our holidays in Islamic Indonesia. Our Criminal Courts are full of would be murdering muslims, and our Maximum Security jails hold many convicted muslim terrorists, and the internet is full of anti-Semitic hatred and the hatred of the West.

So is seems extraordinary to type the role model of all this: Muhammad.

You can't possibly judge a whole nation by some extremists, even muslims are ashamed of.

Prophet muhammad is not responsible of how twisted minded poeple changed the relegion into something to satisfy their corrupted souls.

If you want to talk about this topic , then I can give a million example of every single relegion as terrorism, because THAT'S HUMANITY. Their must be, everywhere, someones with their twisted logic to convice that the truth is not what you see ...etc

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

Sticking to the topic, I want to explain why ENFJ is my choice.

I have always noticed that ENFJs are the middle in everything. And that was prophet Muhammad's main trait.

And Islam is all about moderate. Whether in anger or kindness, hatred or love, worship or pleasure, even selfeconfidence. And that was his message. And that is what he represents.

Since prophets are thought to be a special type of humans which, to an extent, we don't know how much or in what exactly. So either they don't go under the classification of MBTI (which personally I don't find sensible because each prophet differ in his personality), or that it does apply to them but in a more perfect-like manner. They represent the best you can be of your personality. That's how I see it.

 

[Mole]

Sticking to the topic, I want to explain why ENFJ is my choice. I have always noticed that ENFJs are the middle in everything. And that was prophet Muhammad's main trait. And Islam is all about moderate. Whether in anger or kindness, hatred or love, worship or pleasure, even selfeconfidence. And that was his message. And that is what he represents. Since prophets are thought to be a special type of humans which, to an extent, we don't know how much or in what exactly. So either they don't go under the classification of MBTI (which personally I don't find sensible because each prophet differ in his personality), or that it does apply to them but in a more perfect-like manner. They represent the best you can be of your personality. That's how I see it.

The same propaganda is repeated over and over by Islam, without a hint of critical thinking.

What does Islam take us for?

 

[Yuurei]

Sticking to the topic, I want to explain why ENFJ is my choice.

I have always noticed that ENFJs are the middle in everything. And that was prophet Muhammad's main trait.

And Islam is all about moderate. Whether in anger or kindness, hatred or love, worship or pleasure, even selfeconfidence. And that was his message. And that is what he represents.

Since prophets are thought to be a special type of humans which, to an extent, we don't know how much or in what exactly. So either they don't go under the classification of MBTI (which personally I don't find sensible because each prophet differ in his personality), or that it does apply to them but in a more perfect-like manner. They represent the best you can be of your personality. That's how I see it.

Therefore, Muhammad himself, like all prophets and saints is merely a representation, not the man himself. You would be attempting to type the ideal of a human being and not a real person themselves.

But let's, for simplicity sake, say that this concept of Muhammad is 100% historical and accurate. Anyone who is perfectly balanced and moderate would have a type because they would not use one function over another but use them all in perfect succinctness.

 

[EcK]

In my entire life, studying the holly Quran 13 years now, never even for a little bit saw anything of what you claim to say.
And yes stick to typing please.

I suggest more studying then.

 

[Yuurei]

I suggest more studying then.

Or simply getting a basic understanding on the purpose of “Holy Books” v history.

I know many religious people who are ble to maintain thier faith while simultanious understanding the books of thier religion are merely guides to live by and not to be taken literally.

That someone could actually use the “ I didn’t read about a prophet doing anything questionable in this book about how great they were” as an argument is...well, it left me speechless. There is no excuse for such niaivete in today’s world.

 

[Mole]

In my entire life, studying the holly Quran 13 years now, never even for a little bit saw anything of what you claim to say. And yes stick to typing please.

Thr problem is Islam takes the Koran as literally true, and says those who deny the literal truth of the Koran are apostates who deserve death.

 

[EcK]

Or simply getting a basic understanding on the purpose of “Holy Books” v history.

I know many religious people who are ble to maintain thier faith while simultanious understanding the books of thier religion are merely guides to live by and not to be taken literally.

That someone could actually use the “ I didn’t read about a prophet doing anything questionable in this book about how great they were” as an argument is...well, it left me speechless. There is no excuse for such niaivete in today’s world.

Well Islam is a bit different from say the bible in that the Koran is meant to be the literal word of god as dictated by an angel and the suras are meant to be accurate accounts of the sayings and life of mohammed. Furthermore Mohammed is supposed to be the perfect example to be emulated for all times. So marrying a child is okey, killing gays and infideles who don't submit to Islam, killing non muslims to take their stuff and enslaving and raping their wives and daughters etc. are the ways to live one's life for all times. Reading his life I'm reminded of prison wives who'll tell you about all the great qualities of a serial killer. As if the fact that the guy is serial killer doesn't make all other qualities null and void / irrelevant as far as any descent human being is concerned - it is the nature of charismatic leader that people will find they have many qualities they find admirable - even if the facts contradict these views.

as far as typing goes mohammed could be an STJ. (emphasis on strict rules, very specific courses of action instead of general concepts and guidelines etc.). To give a counter example Jesus would most likely type (at least the biblical Jesus) as an INFJ. The two are pretty much exact opposites as far as their approach and personality goes I think.

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

Thr problem is Islam takes the Koran as literally true, and says those who deny the literal truth of the Koran are apostates who deserve death.

Well, if you ask anyone who studied islam they will prove to you the validity of the Quran. That it never changed since like 1430+ years ago , since it first came.

Literal truth you say? I think you might have missed out on something. It does contain literal truth that is written clearly, but also in some places in Quran (like specific worship details and rules) it's written in a way that can be interpreted in many ways. But within the limits and rules of the language and events related with prophet mohammad's sayings (valid ones only that are proved to be original).

Basically their is no islamic
rule/govermnet to send people to death. And such thing can ONLY be done by the judge and not random people. So don't worry about being killed unless you live in a terrible place were no rules apply.

And no one has the right to acuse you with that unless you say it yourself and after so many chances of retuning to god. And in general it doesn't apply unless the person insisted on attaking and making war. In islam they say :don't rush in accusing anyone with apostating!
(Did this explain any concern you have?)

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

The same propaganda is repeated over and over by Islam, without a hint of critical thinking.

What does Islam take us for?

What is your previous experience with islam. It's a region to behave people. You seem to look at it in a different way.

I'm stiking to the topic and you want to change it ! That's frustrating .please!

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

Therefore, Muhammad himself, like all prophets and saints is merely a representation, not the man himself. You would be attempting to type the ideal of a human being and not a real person themselves.

But let's, for simplicity sake, say that this concept of Muhammad is 100% historical and accurate. Anyone who is perfectly balanced and moderate would have a type because they would not use one function over another but use them all in perfect succinctness.

So you with the idea that prophets can be typed. And maybe they are not a perfect human being nor their will ever be, but propets are role models. And it only makes sense that their is a role model for each type. Just saying.

And thank you for the simplicity.

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

I suggest more studying then.

Have you even read it BEFORE you claim!!!
You say it's clearly written, so even stubid ones will see it AND IT'S NOT.

Please give me your prove in Quotes from the Quran.

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

Or simply getting a basic understanding on the purpose of “Holy Books” v history.

I know many religious people who are ble to maintain thier faith while simultanious understanding the books of thier religion are merely guides to live by and not to be taken literally.

That someone could actually use the “ I didn’t read about a prophet doing anything questionable in this book about how great they were” as an argument is...well, it left me speechless. There is no excuse for such niaivete in today’s world.

I don't follow my relegion blindly if that's what you mean, I always find answers for my doubts. That's why I love this relegion.

Anyway, EcK claim it's clearly written and I said I clearly didn't see it.

Quran is not a history book. It only tells a few stories. Who says other than that doesn't really understand holy books.

It's, as you said, a guid for life. That's the definition of holy book.

And thank you for being knowlegable.

 

[Coriolis]

Well, if you ask anyone who studied islam they will prove to you the validity of the Quran. That it never changed since like 1430+ years ago , since it first came.

Literal truth you say? I think you might have missed out on something. It does contain literal truth that is written clearly, but also in some places in Quran (like specific worship details and rules) it's written in a way that can be interpreted in many ways. But within the limits and rules of the language and events related with prophet mohammad's sayings (valid ones only that are proved to be original).

Basically their is no islamic
rule/govermnet to send people to death. And such thing can ONLY be done by the judge and not random people. So don't worry about being killed unless you live in a terrible place were no rules apply.

So those executions we hear about in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia - the beheadings and even stonings - are contrary to true Islam? I do hope so. From what I have read, many of the most negative things we associate with primarily Muslim nations are cultural rather than based in the Quran. We would be better off if they would follow their own religion better, just as we would be if Christians would do a better job following the example of Christ.

But the validity of any holy book is not to be proven, only believed. Anyone who claims proof is either willfully ignorant or outright deceptive.

 

[EcK]

Have you even read it BEFORE you claim!!!
You say it's clearly written, so even stubid ones will see it AND IT'S NOT.

Please give me your prove in Quotes from the Quran.

Yes I've read it, plenty of suras too. As to proof just google any of my claims, you'll find plenty of quotes directly taken from the quran and suras. (as long as you're not in an islamic country where they tend to block all links critical to islam they find)
Did you read it. Because it seems doubtful from where i stand.

My point is that many people confuse their own personal ethics with their religion. There's MANY very good people who are muslim, my point is that their values cannot come from islam as the same people are usually horrified by slavery, child abuse, murder, killing of gays for a preference they were born with etc. acts Mohammed all practised and codified into the muslim faith.
If Mohammed was alive today he would be considered a monster - the type you would need a whole season to cover on the crime investigation channel. As he is claimed to be an example for all times I am perfectly justified in judging him by today's standards. I'm not calling you a bad person, and i understand why you'd conflate the two and take it personally - I just think you are mistaken in your view that mohammed is the source of your morals, as if you weren't pickin and choosing what morals 'you like' based on an external standard you would be in Syria right now cheering the slave markets, beheadings and subjugation of anyone who's not a muslim etc.

 

[EcK]

So those executions we hear about in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia - the beheadings and even stonings - are contrary to true Islam? I do hope so. From what I have read, many of the most negative things we associate with primarily Muslim nations are cultural rather than based in the Quran. We would be better off if they would follow their own religion better, just as we would be if Christians would do a better job following the example of Christ.

But the validity of any holy book is not to be proven, only believed. Anyone who claims proof is either willfully ignorant or outright deceptive.

if the 'it's culture not religion' view was correct then how come that the places with the most stonings, killings of gays etc are also the oldest muslim countries ? The opposite trend should be true if that was the case.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Well, if you ask anyone who studied islam they will prove to you the validity of the Quran. That it never changed since like 1430+ years ago , since it first came.

You seem to confuse proof with "making an arbitrary claim".

A validity of Quran can be assessed by analysing 4.11 an 4.12, and applying them to the simple problem of inheritance of a man with three daughters, both parents and X wives surviving him. The daughters get 2/3, parents 1/3 and wives 1/8, which adds up to 9/8 or 112.5%. Maybe anyone who studied Islam can find creative ways to fudge this in his mind, but I would like to see the actual mathematical proof of the above division.

Possibly, you confuse validity with authenticity. But here there are problems as well. 1430+ years ago was before year 588 C.E. Even most Muslim scholars do not claim that Quran appeared before it was first recited by angel Gabriel in 610 C.E. But maybe we should just chalk it up to your Islamic mathematics. More seriously though, the current Quran was written by a committee two decades after Mohammed's death and all the differing versions were promptly ordered to be destroyed. There are however different versions found, e.g. Sana'a manuscript. So your claim is simply false.

Basically their is no islamic
rule/govermnet to send people to death. And such thing can ONLY be done by the judge and not random people.

There are several governments in Islamic countries (Saudi Arabia being just one of them) that send people to death for apostasy. There are several countries where the majority of Muslims supports such penalty. Haven't they studied Quran? Note that the judges are usually appointed by the government (or sometimes some religious bodies) and are supposed to uphold the Islamic rules. So "such thing can ONLY be done by the judge" - but wait, haven't you just said in the previous sentence that there are no such rules? And what about the recent mob killings of apostates in Bangladesh? Weren't they killed by random Muslims? To be honest, I rarely see two sentences so ridden with falsehoods and errors.

 

[AStrange~Nostalgia]

So those executions we hear about in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia - the beheadings and even stonings - are contrary to true Islam? I do hope so. From what I have read, many of the most negative things we associate with primarily Muslim nations are cultural rather than based in the Quran. We would be better off if they would follow their own religion better, just as we would be if Christians would do a better job following the example of Christ.

But the validity of any holy book is not to be proven, only believed. Anyone who claims proof is either willfully ignorant or outright deceptive.

Don't misunderstand. By prove I meant that it was never manipulated, and it's the EXACT same as when it first came.

Let me explain a little. Punishments are more like threatening to prevent you from doing what's wrong, and not wishing harm to you. Every crime that you see it's punishment as extreme (I'm talking about real islam and not terrorists who act as they wish), it's only because the misdeed is too awful and need to be hated in order to not do it.

Before I give example, I want to stress on the idea that citizens DO NOT have the right to ably these extreme punishment, because they will do it according to their desires and be unfair , since punishments are very precise and mustn't be overdone or underdone. So stoning for e.g mustn't be done without supervision and mustn't go on TV! And prophet mohammad himself told people to not expose themselves and preffered if they return to god and ask forgiveness.

And you need prove that someone commited this crime adultary I think it's called. The conditions are almost impossible , the witnesses, the oath..etc.

The things people keep mentioning are the seven limits of god (that can't be forgiven easily and are extreme because their so wrong) .

Another example, if someone kills an innocent human (not going through that) they shall be killed ( by government and not citizens). And this prophet mohammad that everyone calls murderer or something, he told muslims during war to never kill a chiled, woman, a man worshiping god in his hideout, an innocent civilians who didn't contribute in war or a tree!

I want to tell you that in prophet Muhammad's time their was only -during23 years- one stoning that ocured, and only a very few people had their hands cut. Because people learn the lesson, didn't commit these things ever again. Because that's what relegion is about "Behaving people" from doing wrong.

Just a side note. Do you know that their is a precise amount of mony required to be stolen to have your hand cut. And no, not a bread or apple, like Aladin Disney movie.


Can you tell me who does the executions in Sudi Arabia ? I realy don't know about it.

And please don't take Sudi Arabia as the capital of islam. Muslims also have some issues with it, for e.g they tell women to cover their palms and faces for example, when prophet mohammad said it's allowed to show face and balms. They aren't a real representation of islamic country. Not hating of course.

If you want to know what real islamic country is about then search for Omar bn Abd Alaziz he is a Khalifa from ceturies ago. But they didn't even have poor people to give mony for because of the well application of al-zakah. He made the best example of islamic country in just two years.

And I don't know about the sites that provide twisted info but just go for a decent one.

I'm sorry if this was long though. But Islam in not all about punishments, it has a beauty within that haters can't see.
Just imagine living in such a country where no one steals, kills or misuse their peower...etc